Talk:Kurds
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Thank you @Austronesier: for directing me to that former discussion. I read the discussion and agree with @S Marshall: the discussion was inconclusive. The solution is not to make up a term and add it to the article lead. The academic consensus is that the origin of Kurds is contested. See this Limbert, J. (1968). The origins and appearance of the Kurds in pre‐Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1(2), 41-51.. See the sources from many different centuries along with more recent works I have cited below. First, adding the word Iranic ethnic group violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view because it favors one perspective. Second, an argument based on WP:WEIGHT doesn't apply because the number of sources not mentioning Iranian origin or saying something against it are in majority as you can see below. Third, none of the three references listed in the article mentioned the term Iranic ethnic group. There is a confusion between the notion of Kurdish belonging to Iranian languages with the origins of its people. Scholars who made this classification clearly warned about its caveats for example the peer reviewed article by Liumbert that quotes Vladimir Minorsky saying The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them. Historically several theories have been around. Greeks and Europeans associated Kurds with Kardu, and we see such claims in works of scholars and missionaries visiting the region. Here you see McDowall speculates: Perhaps the Kardu... were really Medes, as Kurds themselves like to think, a distinct mountain tribal people of Indo-Aryan origin. He is not alone in this and many other scholars have the same view. I can numerous resources spanning centuries for this view. None of the sources mention Iranian or Iranic origins. Second, many associated the origin of Kurds to Arabs. This was the dominant view before the 20th century. You can see this view in this works of many Arab, Kurdish and Persian scholars and more from the region. Perhaps the oldest grepresentative of this view is Al-Masudi that in his The Meadows of Gold wrote that the origin of Kurds is contested. They were Aarbs and became mixed with Ajams (non-Arabs, e.g., Persians) and hence their different language. The original text is in Arabic and I can share it with you (can't post the URL here. Not allowed). This account has been shared by many other scholars including Waqyenegar, who is Kurdish and wrote Baday-ul-Lughat a Kurdish Persian dictionary. There are many other sources I can list if needed. Third, some Persian sources inspired by Persian mythology of Shahnameh and a story it tells about the origin of Kurds (people who survived the tyranny of the mythological king Zahhak the snake shoulder). Finally, Kurds themselves are very heterogeneous and some only speak Kurdish and have other origins such as Armenian etc. Please read KURDISH SOCIETY: HETEROGENEITY, STRATIFICATION, MINORITIES part of the article, which says "They were kurdophone and called themselves Kurds without attempting to hide their Armenian origins." There are many other sources like these: Hennerbichler, F. (2012). The origin of Kurds. Advances in Anthropology, 2(02), 64. The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society. Edited by Sebastian Maisel. Santa Barbara These are the some of the major perspectives, but there are more. So I don't see why such big claim should be made in the beginning of the article favoring one perspective, while it is not supported by most academic sources. Pirehelo (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: in case it didn't work first time. 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Less than 24 hrs ago you wrote in the edit summary:
Kurdish is an Iranian language but there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group
(emphasis added). Now you say it is a matter that favors one perspective, only to deny again in the following sentence that "Iranic" can be an appropriate qualifier for an ethnic group. This is confusing. - You see, "Iranic ethnic group" was a compromise; the earlier version read "Iranian ethnic group". A compromise to appease persistent whining about Kurds not being "from Iran", since for many, this is apparently the only reading of "Iranian ethnic group", even when one click on the blue text elucidates (to those who actually care) what "Iranian ethnic group" actually means (= one of the "Iranian peoples"). The terms "Iranian peoples" and "Iranic peoples" are firmly established in the literature, and a search in academic repositories and lesser sites like Google Scholar will inform you that the phrases "Iranic ethnic group" and "Iranian ethnic group" are not unheard of. I reverted the removal of the text not only because of the existing non-consensus to delete "Iranic/Iranian" as descriptor from "ethnic grouip", but also because of the counterfactual statement "there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group".
- Don't get me wrong, I myself have opined multiple times that "Iranic/Iranian ethnic group" is not a good characterization for the Kurds in the opening sentence. But many editors disagree (and some certainly for reasons that are just as valid as mine). And I don't support changes that may result in a version that might align better with what I would like to see, but at the same time are argued on erroneous premises. –Austronesier (talk) 19:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Austronesier:I reiterated that there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group. Could you please provide a few reliable references by researchers in Kurdish studies for it (Not 2024 articles copying English Wikipedia!)? Iranian languages do exist and Kurdish belong to them. Those who think Kurds are an Iranian ethnicity support their claim based on linguistics reasoning, and I just quoted Vladimir Minorsky, who belongs to this group, that literally warns about the limitations of such statement. Also again none of the three provided references support such thing. If something is so disputed why should it be in the lead? At least add a line saying this is contested with some being of such opinion not reverting my edits fully. Pirehelo (talk) 20:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- First an attempt at claiming Nowruz and its influences across the world as "Kurdish" and now this. The citations you asked for are already in the thread you were advised to read, including responses to the arguments you are making. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran:I am asking for where in the sources the term Iranic ethnic group is mentioned. It's a madeup word? If you think otherwise, please add them as footnotes. 21:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Iranic" is a synonym for "Iranian", one simple Google eboks search would show you that it is indeed used in literature. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Or better, try "Kurds are an Iranian ethnic group" in Google Scholar. –Austronesier (talk) 13:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran: My bold change (NB without consensus) from "Iranian" to "Iranic" is apparently contested now. Should we return to "Iranian ethnic group"? In some WP:BATTLEGROUND areas, appeasement is useless... –Austronesier (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mind either spelling. But I guess "Iranic" is still good for now? Imo articles (including its talk page) like these should have a harsher protection template, eg at least 1000-2000 edits to be able to edit it. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Iranic ethnic is mimicking the word Turkic that is for example used in Turkic languages (to avoid confusion with being Turkish). Iranian refers to the national state of Iran. Most Kurds live out of Iran. And as I said the term Iranic ethnic group is a fake word. So, it should be removed from the lead. Or if a statement is to be made, it should mention the diverse set of perspectives in this regard not just one. Pirehelo (talk) 23:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Iranian refers to the national state of Iran.
← This is wrong and clearly shows that you don't care to read the preceding discussions (WP:IDHT). At least read the closing hatnote that I added to an earlier time sink. –Austronesier (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)- What you shared doesn't address the issue raised by scholars I mentioned above. Using this madeup word - Iranic- is clearly taking side and ignoring the majority of scholarly literature. If you include this side of the story why not the other side? Pirehelo (talk) 21:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran: My bold change (NB without consensus) from "Iranian" to "Iranic" is apparently contested now. Should we return to "Iranian ethnic group"? In some WP:BATTLEGROUND areas, appeasement is useless... –Austronesier (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran:I am asking for where in the sources the term Iranic ethnic group is mentioned. It's a madeup word? If you think otherwise, please add them as footnotes. 21:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- First an attempt at claiming Nowruz and its influences across the world as "Kurdish" and now this. The citations you asked for are already in the thread you were advised to read, including responses to the arguments you are making. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Austronesier:I reiterated that there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group. Could you please provide a few reliable references by researchers in Kurdish studies for it (Not 2024 articles copying English Wikipedia!)? Iranian languages do exist and Kurdish belong to them. Those who think Kurds are an Iranian ethnicity support their claim based on linguistics reasoning, and I just quoted Vladimir Minorsky, who belongs to this group, that literally warns about the limitations of such statement. Also again none of the three provided references support such thing. If something is so disputed why should it be in the lead? At least add a line saying this is contested with some being of such opinion not reverting my edits fully. Pirehelo (talk) 20:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Less than 24 hrs ago you wrote in the edit summary:
- I still don't understand why we have not done with this issues so far. I get the reasons behind it, but the term "Iranic" is not an accepted term; please stop trying to make it one. Kurds are Iranian people; we should not force using a somewhat new word because one can't differentiate Iranian people and people from the modern country of Iran, which itself was only called that in English relatively recently. Please revert back to Iranian people, this just seems like a fake forced compromise. Mobin Karami (talk) 12:58, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am Kurdish, and the previous version of this Wikipedia page has often been used against Kurds by others in the Middle East. It has been cited to suggest that Kurds should "go back to Iran," and this usage has promoted hate and racism. The term "Iranian" is closely associated with the country of Iran, which, given this history, makes it inappropriate, as it can perpetuate harmful misunderstandings. Sikorki (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2024
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The underlying toponym is recorded in Assyrian as Qardu and in Middle Bronze Age Sumerian as Kar-da.[46] Assyrian Qardu refers to an area in the upper Tigris basin, and it is presumably reflected in corrupted form in Classical Arabic Ǧūdī, re-adopted in Kurdish as Cûdî.[47]
Provide scholarly sources for above details rather than tabloids and faux sources.
The name would be continued as the first element in the toponym Corduene, mentioned by Xenophon as the tribe who opposed the retreat of the Ten Thousand through the mountains north of Mesopotamia in the 4th century BC.
NO SOURCE, and FALSE information. HaninGoma312 (talk) 05:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: The source is a book published by the Cambridge University Press. Feel free to reopen if you have a better source. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 04:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Map
[edit]Personally, a map of where Kurds live or control [including the various factions like the Peshmerga, SDF, PKK and PJAK] should be added. I night make a map for fun once I can. CertifiedKurd (talk) 14:31, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
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