Talk:State of Palestine
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about State of Palestine. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about State of Palestine at the Reference desk. |
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has been mentioned by a media organization:
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 15, 2015 and November 15, 2020. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on November 17, 2007. The result of the discussion was redirect to Proposals for a Palestinian state. |
![]() | This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 6 times. The weeks in which this happened: |
![]() | On 1 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Palestine. The result of the discussion was Speedy close. |
|
||||||||||||||||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
Picture in the "Art, Music, and Clothing" Section
[edit]Under the 'Art, music, and clothing' Section there is a picture of 'Palestinian children in their traditional dress'. The picture itself was taken in London (on Oct. 9th 2023), and it is not clear this has anything to do with 'traditional Palestinian clothing'. The picture does contain a political message which is irrelevant to the information discussed in the section, and in addition contains a short manifesto in text when opened "There are more than two million people living there, and this brutal form of collective punishment is clearly a war crime which threatens the lives of all of them...". I suggest deleting this picture or finding a more suitable image which is relevant to the information discussed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by an unspecified IP address
Largest city - needs to be fixed
[edit]The infobox says the largest city in the country is Gaza City, but it is actually East Jerusalem, with 595,000 inhabitants according to the article on it, so that needs to be corrected in the infobox. 2A00:A041:3B9A:AC00:88A6:4340:9DD0:6D05 (talk) 14:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- where in the article does it say that? Slatersteven (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The lead, I believe. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 22:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Lede
[edit]@Astropulse: WP:LEDE is a summary of the body and is not supposed to have any details in it. The burden to achieve consensus is on the inserter of the material per WP:ONUS, not on its remover. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Astropulse: I have reverted your revert while we discuss. Please explain your revert further, for example, the restoration of
In 1917, Britain called for a Jewish nation to be created
, which is actually false. Selfstudier (talk) 10:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine
- it says "In 1917, in order to win Jewish support for Britain's First World War effort, the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine."
- National Army Museum is the British Army's central museum.
- How is this false? Its already in the reference Astropulse (talk) 18:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jewish national home is not equal to a Jewish nation. That you are not aware of this and all the arguments around it, is disturbing. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see. right now, i think the flow of information is not great and it was severely shortened by @Makeandtoss People should have some more context Astropulse (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jewish national home is not equal to a Jewish nation. That you are not aware of this and all the arguments around it, is disturbing. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
@Selfstudiercan you confirm your reasoning behind recent revert and why you like the current version instead of version july 12 before changes by Makeandtoss Astropulse (talk) 15:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- See my comment above. Selfstudier (talk) 15:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change For other uses of Palestine, see Palestine to For other uses of Palestine, see Palestine (disambiguation) @PadFoot2008. It currently has a link that links to the article itself after the recent moves. AG202 (talk) 15:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Done. Selfstudier (talk) 15:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Recognition recent and historical
[edit]Why does the article lack mention of recent Norway/Ireland/Spain recognition and earlier ones by other nations ? Why is the Nakba only mentioned and not at all described ? Why are Jews occupying Palestine not listed as resident ? — ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Palestine is not a 'country' , it is merely a state. It is not recognized as a country by the UN, although this entry says that it is recognized as a country in this Wikipedia page. If it were a country it would be the 194th. Here is a list of countries recognized by the UN:
Source:[1]
Here is the history:
No where here (UN page) is Palestine listed as a state:
Even Arab news source AlJazeera does not list Palestine as a 'country' :
Source: [6]
"Yet the U.S. alone has consistently blocked the Palestinian territories from being fully recognized as a country – at least symbolically – by preventing them from becoming the 194th member state of the United Nations. Palestine does have the status of being a permanent observer at the U.N. , where it is represented by the Palestinian Authority. Being a permanent observer lets Palestine attend most meetings, but it cannot vote on any international agreements or recommendations." Charlotte240 (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — kashmīrī TALK 22:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoP
- ^ https://www.drake.edu/media/departmentsoffices/dussj/2006-2003documents/PalestineGiridhar.pdf
- ^ https://www.un.org/unispal/history/
- ^ https://lawrecord.com/files/36_Rutgers_L_Rec_186.pdf
- ^ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/22/mapping-which-countries-recognise-palestine-in-2024
- ^ https://menafn.com/1108468301/US-Says-It-Wants-Palestinians-To-Have-A-Country-Of-Their-Own-But-Its-Actions-Say-Otherwise
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change country to territory. 130.132.173.12 (talk) 21:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit extended-protected}}
template. Remsense诉 21:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — kashmīrī TALK 23:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Non-extendedconfirmed users are excluded from the consensus forming process. It's therefore not possible for them to establish a consensus for a change before or after submitting an edit request. So, I assume Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit extended-protected}}
responses are not applicable to non-extendedconfirmed users. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Non-extendedconfirmed users are excluded from the consensus forming process. It's therefore not possible for them to establish a consensus for a change before or after submitting an edit request. So, I assume Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 July 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Add a clickable song thingy where you can play the national anthem </div Depotadore (talk) 11:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'd agree that the anthem audio should be added to the country's infobox, similar to other states. We already explicitly state that it's the anthem, with sources backing it up. I don't see why a clickable audio file can't be added to the infobox here. AG202 (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Add a clickable song thingy where you can play the national anthem
Done PianoDan (talk) 17:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Lede
[edit]The Mandate for Palestine brought significant changes to the political and social landscape of the area, setting the stage for the conflicts and struggles that would follow. @Makeandtoss Astropulse (talk) 01:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is quite editorial. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is that in the article? Anyway, it is true enough, I suppose, as far as it goes tho the issues predate the Mandate, eg Balfour, Zionism and there were conflicts and struggle during the Mandate too. So yeah, a bit editorial/simplistic. Selfstudier (talk) 10:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- what if we add just `setting the stage for the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.` Astropulse (talk) 02:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Mandate.. which incorporated the text of the Balfour Declaration, set the stage....(https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-i-1917-1947/) Selfstudier (talk) 09:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- what if we add just `setting the stage for the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.` Astropulse (talk) 02:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is no state of Palestine. This page is propaganda and not accurate. All references to Palestine as a State or Country should be removed. There are no official borders, no government, no economy and completely dependent on others for security, food, water and energy. This is not a country or a state. Why would they be working towards recognition of a state or country if it already existed? 2601:140:8D01:2890:2998:72D2:7089:71E0 (talk) 18:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia bases content on published reliable sources. And as discussed in this article, and in more detail in Legal status of the State of Palestine and International recognition of the State of Palestine the consensus amongst such sources is that the international recognition it has received (e.g. as an observer state of the United Nations General Assembly etc) qualifies it as a state. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
Early history
[edit]why there's no early history section? at least a brief about non-arab/muslim history and a detailed paragraph about Muslim/Arab history of the region of Palestine?? 213.139.45.143 (talk) 12:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is about the state, to the region. Slatersteven (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then why does Israel have. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 20:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Lede problems
[edit]@Kharbaan Ghaltaan: Problems with the new lede:
1- opening paragraph should not detail religion and ethnicities, nor should the lede.
2- Too many mention of "conquests," it should just be said that this ruled after this, etc.
3- The modern Palestinian state (which doesn't exist beyond the PA, which can be described to have municipal powers at best) does not yet exist; and certainly does not exist in 1948.
4- (Christian and Muslims) is redundant
5- "rejected by the Arabs." should be replaced with "the plan was never implemented."
6- Calling the Fatah-Hamas conflict a "civil war" is an overstretch. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding 1st point, look at Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, they're too like that. Because Palestine, along with these countries are similar, since they're located in the Fertile Crescent. I didn't understand the 3rd point. Pls explain or tell me what kind of sentence will be suitable. Pls don't ignore it and reply as possible Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- They should be change as well since MOS:OPEN says the opening paragraph should be kept as general as possible.
- There is no Palestinian state on the ground, but a Palestinian Authority. There are recognitions of the existence of the right for such a state, but that is not a state on the ground. Also PA was established in 1993. Prior to that there was no Palestinian body in the occupied territories. This sentence can just be removed "The modern Palestinian state have been in conflict since 1948, which was triggered during the British rule." Makeandtoss (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks actually good now. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
History
[edit]@Slatersteven why there's no early history section? at least a brief about non-arab/muslim history and a detailed paragraph about Muslim/Arab history of the region of Palestine?? Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 09:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no "real history" of the state of Palestine, its is a modern invention, There may be a justification for a brief one of two lines run down and a link to Palestine (region). Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Herodotus would disagree. In The Histories Herodotus mentions Palestinians and Palestine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.143.164 (talk) 10:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do RS say that they are the same entities? Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Herodotus would disagree. In The Histories Herodotus mentions Palestinians and Palestine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.143.164 (talk) 10:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- As if the "secular" state of Israel is an ancient invention. All modern-nation states are modern inventions; there should definitely be a history section related to the history of the Palestinian territories. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, which is why many such articles do not have huge ancient history section. Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Israel does have a large ancient history section, so large that is obscures the 3,000 modern history of the Palestine region also now known as the territory of the Israeli state. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- And two wrongs do not make a right (see below). Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did not claim that; that's why I have been promoting the discussion of the history of the Palestinian territories here, and the history of the Palestine region at Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- And two wrongs do not make a right (see below). Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Israel does have a large ancient history section, so large that is obscures the 3,000 modern history of the Palestine region also now known as the territory of the Israeli state. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, which is why many such articles do not have huge ancient history section. Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
The way IP history is dealt with is POV driven, I suspect. There is a History of Palestine article (which says at top "This article is about the history of the region. For the state, see History of the State of Palestine), so then there is History of Israel (which says at top "the history of the State of Israel and its historical background. For pre-modern Jewish history in the region, see History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel). So there is an article about Israel with a very large History in it and now we have a Palestine article (redirects here) and so we must have a very large history in that as well. And so on. The "top" articles should be the History of.. and summary style implemented elsewhere, methinks. No? (History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel and History of ancient Israel and Judah...hmmm) Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reading your comment I came up with an idea that I do not fully support yet but I think is interesting (thinking out loud). Maybe the best solution to this unique issue is that any history of State of Palestine and Israel before 1882 is kept at the History of Palestine (as a region) article. The downside would be that both articles would not contain any pre-1882 history. Or maybe it could as a small summarizing section that is identical in both articles. [History of Israel and Judah would reorganized as a subset of the History of Palestine; History of the Jews and Judaism would be moved to "in Palestine" and reorganized as a subset of the History of Palestine] Makeandtoss (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- We can't discuss what to do on other articles here, maybe at the NPOV notice board or on the village pump, but not here. Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, it affects here, why the ever expanding "history" keeps getting added everywhere, including now here, because of a perceived equivalency with Israel article. We have had the "why is there all this history here" debate at the Israel article, to no avail and the same thing will occur here.
- I am tempted to try and sort it out at IsPal collaboration but think it might well turn into the usual. I think we should first try and sort out the Palestinian/Palestine side of things, do it correctly and leave the Jews/Israel people to sort out their own mess. Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- We can't discuss what to do on other articles here, maybe at the NPOV notice board or on the village pump, but not here. Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Citation needed
[edit]Hi,
The lead sentence asserts that Palestine is a country, but the footnote has the following error: “The named reference :17 was invoked but never defined.” Suggest either supplying a substantiating citation, or otherwise replacing it with a Citation Needed template —Arrandale Westmere (talk) 04:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Better reference needed for Palestinian Statehood
[edit]The reference used to validate Palestinian Statehood (ref #19) needs to be changed because it states the exact opposite:
From "United Nations Common Country Analysis for the Occupied Palestinian Territory" states:
"The text, designations, and presentations of materials in this publication, including their respective citations, maps, and bibliography, do NOT imply the expression of ANY OPINION WHATSOEVER OR ANY OFFICIAL POSITION BY THE UNITED NATIONS concerning the legal status of any country, territory, city, or area, or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries." Meson81-wiki (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Removed ref. We don't need a ref for the statehood (or country, same thing, although I prefer state myself. I guess saying the State of Palestine is a state is redundant tho). Selfstudier (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please undo this edit, which added a clearly inappropriate coma [sic]. Thanks. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 14:51, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Done – macaddct1984 (talk | contribs) 15:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia controversial topics
- B-Class vital articles
- Wikipedia level-4 vital articles
- Wikipedia vital articles in Geography
- B-Class level-4 vital articles
- Wikipedia level-4 vital articles in Geography
- B-Class vital articles in Geography
- B-Class Palestine-related articles
- Top-importance Palestine-related articles
- WikiProject Palestine articles
- B-Class Limited recognition articles
- High-importance Limited recognition articles
- WikiProject Limited recognition articles
- B-Class Arab world articles
- Top-importance Arab world articles
- WikiProject Arab world articles
- B-Class country articles
- WikiProject Countries articles
- B-Class International relations articles
- High-importance International relations articles
- B-Class International law articles
- Mid-importance International law articles
- WikiProject International law articles
- WikiProject International relations articles
- B-Class politics articles
- High-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- B-Class Western Asia articles
- Top-importance Western Asia articles
- WikiProject Western Asia articles
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press
- Selected anniversaries (November 2015)
- Selected anniversaries (November 2020)
- Pages in the Wikipedia Top 25 Report