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October 24

Founding members of CARE International, 27 November 1945

Which 22 organisations including Salvation Army founded CARE International in 1945?

Kind regards Sarcelles (talk) 16:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go to this page in the Yale Library Digital Collections, and download the PDF. On page 9 there is a list of 26 CARE member agencies, though the SA is not listed. The PDF includes Kissinger-related documents dated 1946-47, so the list is likely to be of a similar date. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 19:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also see that Wallace Campbell wrote The History of Care: A Personal Account in 1990. Unfortunately, the Archive.org copy cannot be borrowed. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 19:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another book with, unfortunately, only a snippet view: Stanford Cazier (1964). CARE: A Study in Cooperative Voluntary Relief, Volume 1.^[1] --Lambiam 19:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When and where were drawers invented?

Looking at old furniture today, I wondered when drawers were first made. I looked at our article drawer, and disappointingly it has absolutely nothing about their history. Furniture has a "History" section, but the word "drawer" does not occur in that section.

When I went looking outside Wikipedia, it only wanted to tell me about "chests of drawers", and this, for example, tells me that " it was not until the late 17th century that the use of drawers in chests emerged": it is not clear whether it is saying that drawers were a new invention, or already existed in some other kind of furniture.

It occurred to me to look at desks, and I found Bargueño desk, which says that these were first produced in the 15th century (but does not explicitly say that these first ones contained drawers, though typical ones certainly do).

Ancient furniture led me to tansu, several types of which from the Edo period are described with drawers - but that is hardly "ancient".

I'm sure somebody can find better sources that will help pin it down. ColinFine (talk) 21:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This source traces proper sliding drawers to mid 17th century chests ("coffers") that open with a hinged lid on top and have a drawer for additional storage beneath. This evolved into a "chest of drawers". Additionally (from what I could find: 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.)* the "drawers" in 15th century Bargueño desks are what are considered precursors to proper drawers; being small pull-out storage boxes for papers and small objects. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 02:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC) . . . *P.s: these references might be derived from a common unspecified source.[reply]

EO dates the term to the 1570s.[2] And note that "drawers", as in underwear, dates to about the same time, and for similar reason, a literal use of "draw" as a verb. (Presumably they could keep their drawers in the drawers.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And, of course, drawers could make sketches of their drawers in the drawers. 136.56.165.118 (talk) 05:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The OED puts it slightly earlier, with a quotation "bryng hym a litle booke..: which was in a certaine boxe or drawer." from 1565. I didn't think of looking in a dictionary.

This significantly predates what all the sources 136.56 cites - but perhaps it has the meaning that the IP suggests for Bargueño desks ColinFine (talk) 12:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In French, according to the source cited in wikt:tiroir, we find "1530 tirouer « petite caisse emboîtée dans un meuble et qui peut se tirer", which is earlier still. Again, if the distinction 136.56 makes is valid, this could mean the earlier sense. ColinFine (talk) 13:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ColinFine: HTH:

In the mid-1600s, a notable change occurred [in the evolution of chests] with the addition of drawers.
— https://www.penderynantiques.co.uk/the-history-of-the-chest-of-drawer/

--CiaPan (talk) 14:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS. But that, again, tells about adding drawers to chests, which apparently is a moment of application, not an invention. --CiaPan (talk

Here's a Game of Twenty Squares box from the tomb of Tutankhamun, with a drawer to hold the pieces. His tomb also had some caskets, cabinets, whatever you want to call them, with knobs on the front as if for a drawer, but I can't find pictures of how they open so they might just be chests with a hand grip on the front. There are a couple of similar (and probably older) drawered game boxes in the article on senet. Card Zero (talk) 22:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, from Howard Carter's notes (Tutankhamun's tomb inventory): 585. A wooden chest. of solid make; having many compartments and sliding drawers for knick-knacks. Size 65x33x27 high --136.56.165.118 (talk) 02:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Carter's units are cm (as used further down the page), so that's under 1 foot high. I suppose all his knick-knack boxes were kept on shelves and tables. Card Zero (talk) 03:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pushing it back about another 500 years, I found this cosmetics box. It is not freestanding furniture, which is another matter. This article from Singapore about drawers says "The use of drawers in Western furniture came no later than in China; it might even have been earlier. Foreigners also like to boast that drawers originated in ancient Greece — at least they appeared widely in Gothic-style furniture during the Middle Ages." I don't think any of that's true, apart from the unexpected admission that something wasn't invented in China. This dressoir from before 1500 has drawers: image #18 here shows a closeup of one in the open position. Mind you I see the Louvre is labelling it "1500/1900", perhaps they doubt its authenticity. Card Zero (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find it plausible that the drawer was invented multiple times independently in civilizations once the arts of woodworking and furniture making were sufficiently developed. Almost all early specimens will not have survived the centuries. --Lambiam 19:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 25

Apology

Hi all on the Ref Desks. I've been under a lot of strain AFK recently, and a WP:Wikibreak should have been in order. Many of my posts over the last month or so have been unhelpful, short-tempered, dismissive or otherwise fatuous. I'd like to say sorry to anyone I might have have offended in any way. Please press Ctrl-Alt-Del. MinorProphet (talk) 17:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hang in there. It gets better. Sometimes it helps to talk about what's bothering you, so reach out. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't noticed! I thought you were very comprehensive with Vchimpanzee's tech support problems recently. Card Zero (talk) 23:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I too did not notice anything problematic in your responses. Some questions or reactions irk me too. For your peace of mind, just ignore these and focus on the many questions where you can be really helpful. --Lambiam 18:47, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your answers regarding the Culture series in the past. They were very helpful. Viriditas (talk) 21:22, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 26

Serendipity through error, cuisine edition

This has been discussed close to death, but it keeps coming up in so many different ways that I wanted to ask a question about cuisine. We are all aware at this point about the role errors and mistakes play in scientific discovery and elsewhere. I have only just recently become aware of how this also plays a significant role in new cuisine. Does anyone have a list of dishes that are said to have been created through error? I am reminded of toasted ravioli, but not much else. The reason I'm bringing this up is because the bakery at my local grocery store messes up a batch of bread once a month or so and then puts that batch on sale to get rid of them, except they never once got around to tasting them and realizing how great they are. They are very crunchy, very dense, and similar to the kind of old world Italian sandwich bread local delis used to have in American cities which are all but gone now. Which got me to thinking, there's probably a huge list of foods that were created by mistake, and we don't have an article on them. Viriditas (talk) 20:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ChatGPT seems to indicate that most foods were created by mistake. It lists the following as an answer to my question:

Chocolate chip cookie, accidentally created by Ruth Wakefield
Potato chips, accidentally created by George Crum
Popsicle, accidentally created by Frank Epperson
Coca-Cola, accidentally created by John Pemberton
Tarte Tatin, accidentally created by the Tatin sisters
Corn Flakes, accidentally created by John Harvey Kellogg and his brother Will
Worcestershire sauce, accidentally created by John Lea and William Perrins
Ice cream cone, accidentally created by a waffle vendor
Beer, accidentally discovered in a fermented grain store
Cheese, accidentally discovered in curdled milk in the presence of rennet
Slurpee, accidentally created by Omar Knedlik
Nachos, accidentally created by Ignacio "Nacho" Anaya
Champagne, accidentally discovered when wine re-fermented

Does this mean such a list would be useless? Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with such a list could be "completeness". One way around that would be to create a category instead of an article. Then things could easily be added to it as they're encountered. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem would be accuracy. Simply checking the linked article on Potato chips shows that recipes had been published decades before the supposed George Crum 'invention' (making it at best a re-invention). Beer was being made least 13,000 years ago, and we cannot possibly know how it was first 'discovered'. The list appears to be merely of stories circulating on the Internet – ChatGPT is not reliable. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What would you name the category? Viriditas (talk) 21:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe "accidental inventions". I expect Silly Putty would be another entry. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There could be a parent category "serendipity" for accidental discoveries - but isn't that every discovery? Some are more accidental than others. Well, at least, there could be a subcategory for food, where happy accidents abound (perhaps because accidents in general abound). "Accidental culinary inventions" I guess. Card Zero (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not clear who should be credited with the discovery of Neptune – Johann Gottfried Galle, Urbain Le Verrier, both? – but in no way, regardless of the answer, was the discovery accidental. They knew precisely what they were looking for, and that was what they found. --Lambiam 09:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The popular Serbian dish Karađorđeva šnicla was an improvised chicken kiev without the right ingredients. Card Zero (talk) 00:53, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One version of how the Cobb salad was invented indicates it was improvised, if not exactly accidental. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The cheese and vinegar in it were originally accidents too, this gets recursive. Card Zero (talk) 03:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the event that anyone is interested in the bread I’m talking about, it’s a failed focaccia al rosmarino. I don’t know exactly what went wrong, but it failed to rise and looks like a flattened pizza, except it’s just thick enough to carefully cut into with a knife and stuff sandwich fixings inside. It’s the greatest thing I’ve ever eaten, and it’s about as wide as a smartphone but twice as long. Sandwich heaven. Viriditas (talk) 08:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a generic term "flatbread". Focaccia is already in this category, so your serendipitously flattened focaccia should belong there even more strongly. Many are not crisp, but some are. --Lambiam 15:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Including Matzah. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m aware, but this wasn’t flatbread and it wasn’t focaccia, it was something new and was considered a defective product. It was like a very dense, crispy focaccia. Like I said, this isn’t a product on the market. It’s not something you can go out and buy. It terms of taste, it was quite the hybrid. It tastes like a bagel, looks like focaccia, has the feel of flatbread, but has a crisp, cracker-like exterior. Thinking about it further, I think Lambiam is probably right; this should be considered as a kind of flatbread, but there's really nothing like it. Bagel-like dough, focaccia-like taste, but cracker-like mouth feel. Viriditas (talk) 19:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to try and talk to the baker tomorrow, but here's what I think happened. They were making bagels and focaccia in separate pans. Something happened, maybe they have a new hire, I don't know, and they accidentally baked a focaccia bagel. No hole, but long, narrow, and wide enough to fit a knife in and cut it open to pack sandwich ingredients inside. Closed on both ends, crispy on top and bottom, soft on the inside. I'm aware there are bagel-like focaccia recipes, but this is much denser and thinner than focaccia. Viriditas (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note, I made an attempt to reach out to the baker responsible for this batch, but they weren't there when I went in. Another baker was there who I discussed the issue with and they said they didn't have any knowledge about it since they were on vacation at the time. But the way they said it made me think that the other baker was experimenting while their supervisor was gone, which would explain the unusual items. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel rather pedantic about the use of the word "accident" here. As an example, Pemberton purposely experimented with several igredients to make a non-opioid pain reliever. Among the ingredients were cola nut and damiana. Eventually, he mixed those and got a flavor he liked. Saying this was an accident implies that he was trying to do one thing, such as make a lubricant for a sewing machine, and acturally produced a pain reliever drink. In reality, he intended to make the drink and eventually stumbled across one that he liked. I do not see that as an "accident." 68.187.174.155 (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Viriditas (talk) 16:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 28

Social choice theory paradox

How is it called when the more people are involved in decision-making, the more subjective and biased (rather than well-thought) such a decision becomes? (Suggesting that for a better decision, it should be made either by one person or by a narrow circle of people, technically implying an authoritarian approach). I guess it's somewhat similar to Arrow's impossibility theorem, but not sure. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not find mentions of the alleged counterintuituive effect of crowd size negatively impacting decision quality. Instead, I see such claims as, "We found that increasing the crowd size improves the quality of the outcome. This improvement is quite large at the beginning and gradually decreases with larger crowd sizes."^[3] Since the cost or effort of determining the crowd decision increases with crowd size and the rate of increase will hardly go down with increasing crowd size, in any given situation there will be an optimal size beyond which the limited gain in outcome quality does not justify the cost increase.

It is established wisdom, experimentally verified, that social influence can have a negative effect on the wisdom of the crowd,^[4] but this effect is not specifically related to crowd size. --Lambiam 10:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Choice overload" and "overchoice" were common terms about 30 years ago. I do not know how common they are now. A phrase most people understand that means the same thing is "design by committee". Then, there are many old phrases that refer to the same phenomenon, such as "too many witches spoil the brew." There are many related observations, such as the observation that the intelligence of a crowd is equivalent to the dumbest person in the crowd (which I've heard is actually translated from a Polish phrase used to describe how Hitler's speaches to large crowds were accepted so well). In opposition, there is wisdom of the crowd, which can be confused. You are asking about decisions being made by a crowd. The wisdom of the crowd asks for a specific answer to a question, such as "What is the total number of potatoes that are turned into French Fries every day?" Nobody is likely to know, but everyone will guess. Half will guess too high. Half will guess too low. If you average it all together, you get an answer that tends to be accurate. But, as mentioned, that is entirely different than getting a crowd to decide what font to use for a business presentation. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 16:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Old phrases are not reliable sources for the existence of the alleged effect. The so-called jury theorems apply to crowd-based decision making in general, not just to estimating the value of a scalar quantity. --Lambiam 17:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam, taking your first finding we must assume that the premices of the inquiry (inquiries) were reasonably prepared, that the question(s) attracted the attention of a lost of the available experts aware of the related problematics, that only in the end the curious and the bystanders started joining the crowd. That specific claim they made was indeed about data collection campaigns among a preselected population of experts (your link ). Subjectivity and bias maybe would be about dealing with politics, social matters rather than technical matters. Which does not mean that the reduced comitee necessarily starts on healthy premices, that's for sure, only that the individual members of it may stand more under a possible public scrutiny than when they're and after a while lost amongst the crowd. --Askedonty (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The crowdworkers in the experimental setup of the paper were not selected on being experts; the experimenters had no control over the level of expertise of people signing up for the task. Discussing the problem of discrepancies between the reference data and ground truth, the authors of the paper even write, explicitly, "Even if we would replace the crowdworkers with experts, this problem would not be completely solved." Given their evaluation method, also no distinction was made between early and late signers-up. I see no argument why we "must assume" any of what you claim.

All of this is hardly relevant to the original question. Can you find any papers discussing a negative effect of crowd size on outcome quality? --Lambiam 07:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We had several examples here on Wiki where many editors voting on a particular proposal created a mess and the discussion became sidetracked, ultimately being closed as inconclusive. Don't know about academic papers, but it appears that in some cases the involvement of a greater number of decision-makers shifts the potential well-thought outcome towards inconclusive and biased as the probability of inexperienced and hotheaded people rises. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 08:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In most academic studies, the premise is that individuals first reach their decisions independently, whereupon a fixed algorithm consolidates these many decisions into a single crowd decision. If there is a preceding open discussion, there can be many confounding factors. Some people know how to sound authoritative and persuasive while they actually know next to nothing of the subject matter. Others may sidetrack the discussion by raising issues that, however important by themselves, are not relevant for the issue at hand. People may argue that A because of B, after which discussion may focus on the validity of B, although it has little bearing on the validity of A and refuting B does not tell us anything about A. See also FUD.

Reaching a decision through voting in which there are several alternatives, some of which are mere variants of each other (A1, A2, B1, B2a, B2b, B2c(i), B2c(ii), ...), it makes a tremendous difference how the voting is arranged and which voting system is used. Bad arrangements and systems can lead to outcomes no one wanted. This problem is well known, but independent of crowd size or pre-vote discussions. Without studying the examples you have in mind I can't tell which of these issues made it a mess, but I doubt that the number of voters was by itself a major cause. A greater number of decision makers means that the probability of having experienced, levelheaded and smart people aboard also rises. I see no clear reason why this should have a less powerful effect than the increase in know-nothings and firebrands.

We do not need more anecdotal evidence. I still have seen no references of any kind to papers discussing a negative effect of increased crowd size on outcome quality. --Lambiam 10:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but what we need is to more explicitly define what we're talking about. Studies are formatted to give a standard ranking, individual, decision-making group, wisdom of crowds. Samples here assorted with two crucial dates, 1904 and 1907. You can't count the public to not wonder whether the concept is not somehow flawed given the events posterior to that era. Then you'll have the (U.S. gov) Library of Medicine, and they do leave it there may exist other corridors behind some doors: "... group decision-making was not better than the wisdom of crowds, showing inconsistency with the results of Navajas et al. (2018)." They agree that parametrization of the sudies do play some role: "This inconsistency in result occurs because of no difference found in creativity and utilization of resources between group decision-making and the wisdom of crowds in complex information integration", "because confidence cannot accurately predict correct answers", "weighting confidence would lead to worse rank aggregation". The landscape left behind should not be so arid that the people wonder whether the scientists simply were reluctant to jeopardize their position (mustard gas, you know all that trenches stuff etc.) --Askedonty (talk) 12:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One may hope that reports on studies examining the effect of crowd size on outcome quality define the assumptions, the procedure and the quality measure. We do not have to decide that for them here. There are actually many such papers and even whole books, which use different definitions and methods. What we are still missing is references to studies that support the allegation of the OP. --Lambiam 14:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 30

Standing on the gasoline station in Poland because the car doesn't turn on

Hi there, my car did turn off while I reached by chance a gas station nearby and well I stayed there to look what's the problem. I tried to get the car running till the Battery was dead. Sure thing I took the battery and moved the care to a parking slot and told my problem, the battery is dead and the car doesn't turn on for further inspections I need to go home load the battery for 24 hours at least.

Well the worker said, yeah okay, he saw the car in the camera I guess since i told him which car.

I returned 56 hours later (battery was charging for 28 hours till the green light showed battery is full) and since it's not that easy to reach the station it took its time.

Coming there, the car immediately started with the full battery after 3 tries and than a woman camed telling me, the car is staying 5 days I have to pay and no one was informed who's car is it and why the car stands. And the car stands on a place for trucks not for cars.

I clearly told the woman, I was talking to a male worker about my car issues and that I need a load battery and nobody has informed me that there is any cost or that the car is placed wrong. I really feel disrespected since I got to understand that nobody has to inform me if the parking place is casting anything or not, it would be my job to clear that and I can't park longer than 24 hours. (You remember I told the guy in the gas station my battery will charge at least 24 hours, since I don't want to come with a half loaded battery and have only few tries till the Battery dies again, I want to have as much energy as possible till the Battery would die again.)

Do you think I really have to pay for this car leaving? --78.88.93.197 (talk) 17:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 18:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, so you would be also glad in this situation if nobody told you the parking isn't for free and when you come they ask you to pay instead of informing in first it's not for free ? --78.88.93.197 (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why did the woman say "5 days" when you were only gone for 3? And if there is an established charge per day for parking, where do they inform the public of this? This seems like an informal contract where the presence or absence of signs might be important. Speaking of which, we have a sign at the top of this page that says "We don't answer questions that require legal advice." That's because, as non-professionals, we're not very good at it and we'll make your problem worse. Card Zero (talk) 20:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, the probability of running across a Polish lawyer here is probably low. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 31

What part of Wikipedia should I go to for writing criticism about this website?

… 209.195.249.118 (talk) 15:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is not a chat site or a blog host. If you want to express your thoughts about various subjects, search for sites that provide blogging services. There are many to choose from. If you have suggestions for improving specific articles, you are very welcome to discuss your suggestions on the talk pages of those articles. Or if there is something that needs to be fixed, be bold and fix whatever does not reflect verifiable sources, notability, and other policies. 85.76.32.204 (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you experience technical problems in using Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) is the place to mention them. If you think Wikipedia could be improved by specific, not policy-related changes, propose them at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). --Lambiam 19:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you think a specific article is badly written, criticize it on that article's Talk page; or you can change it yourself, but be prepared to give reasons for your changes if someone disagrees. This is how articles are improved by many hands over time. —Tamfang (talk) 01:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IP.118. You should create an account on Wikipediocracy, the self-styled "The Wikipedia Critics' Forum". You will not find a body of more intelligent individuals committed to nuanced and analytical commentary of both Wikipedia's public image and internal processes. You will be in good company; several upstanding members of this community already have accounts there, such as Users Just Step Sideways, Carrite and Levivich. Good luck! SerialNumber54129 13:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Blimey, they must be intelligent! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123: So good I named it twice :) SerialNumber54129 14:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah great. So not just a seething cauldron of disaffected and banned editors, after all. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See also Wikipedia Review. Alansplodge (talk) 13:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The URL for Wikipedia Review is not working for me. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the one where the bizarre dude rants to himself all day? SerialNumber54129 14:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't encourage anyone to look at that particular site. Also Wikipedia Review seems to be down. No great loss there. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just don't fall into the trap of finding some errors in an article on a subject you're very conversant with, and concluding that "Wikipedia is absolute rubbish and should be avoided by all serious scholars". That was pretty much the view of a friend of mine after he asked what "this Wikipedia thing" is all about, about 20 years ago. Sight unseen, he instantly concluded the concept could not possibly work, or if it did, the results would be garbage and he'd be having nothing to do with it. I must ask him, next time I see him, how often he uses WP in his academic research as a licensed psychotherapist. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Editors probably need all the licensed psychotherapists they can get... But so glad not a "floating island of garbage". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't evasion of the mentioned trap just Gell-Mann amnesia? Folly Mox (talk) 14:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 1

Noodles

And by the way, why are glass noodles so much more calorific than their egg counterparts? (running at about 350 cals/100g compared to 150 cals,) Bon appetit. SerialNumber54129 13:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this cooked or uncooked? The USDA's FoodData Central database gives

351 kcal / 100 g for "Noodles, chinese, cellophane or long rice (mung beans), dehydrated"^[5] and
384 kcal / 100 g for "Noodles, egg, dry, unenriched"^[6] and
138 kcal / 100 g for "Noodles, egg, unenriched, cooked, without added salt".^[7]

--Lambiam 19:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: cooked, I think. SerialNumber54129 20:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since cellophane noodles also increase substantially in weight by cooking, I suspect that your date are for uncooked cellophane noodles. The data I find on the web for cooked cellophane noodles are all over the place. --Lambiam 21:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's why google and other search engines were invented. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Tio be fair, my question was why calorifically one != the other. It's not that important: a good dollop of bean paste mixed in with a bowlful is food of the gods :) SerialNumber54129 12:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 2

New York presidential electors

Hello. The state of New York, joins the other states that punish faithless electors, with a special law. However, I can't understand one thing: presidential electors, (this year there will be 28), cast their pro-forma vote on a ballot, with the candidates' names already written on the same ballot, and so they don't have to do anything else; to cast their vote, they simply have to put it in a ballot box. But if so, since they cannot change their vote, what is the point of binding the presidential electors themselves? Unless the ballot changes: we shall see. Thank you. 93.150.80.20 (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That they don't have to do anything else does not imply they can't do anything else. They could scratch out the written names and write in other names before putting the ballot they were handed in the ballot box. Or they might come in prepared with an alternative ballot in hand and put that one in the ballot box. --Lambiam 19:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Font to ID

I'm trying my hand at learning vector drawing and I figured I would try cleaning up some WP images that need vectorization. Does anyone know what font is being used in the image here? The user that initially uploaded it is no longer active. Thanks! Matt Deres (talk) 22:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind. It's Impact. Matt Deres (talk) 22:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

sweet sweet anachronism —Tamfang (talk) 01:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question regarding notable topic choosing

What is a good notable topic? Everything has already been written about. NoBrainFound (talk) 22:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that determining notability is a major (and initial) part of the work of creating an article, it is unlikely that many people have spent time finding notable subjects and then not gone on to create the article.

Requested articles is a place where people have made suggestions; but in most cases they have done nothing to determine whether the subject is notable.

Your question takes me back to nearly twenty years ago, when I was a new editor, and desperately looking for a topic that I could write an article about to "make my mark" on Wikipedia. Since then I have learnt that creating articles is not the only way to improve Wikipedia. We have hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of seriously deficient articles that are crying out for keen editors to improve them (or in some cases, nominate them for deletion). For some strange reason, not many editors seem to want to spend their time in this way (and I don't much, either: I mostly spend my Wikipedia time on the help and reference desks, helping other editors). ColinFine (talk) 23:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further developments." Frontinus (c. 40–103 AD)

"In this field [physics], almost everything is already discovered, and all that remains is to fill a few unimportant holes." Philipp von Jolly, 1878. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, Frontinus' words are discussed here and translated very differently: "Having set aside siegeworks and siege engines, because their discovery was completed long ago (so I attend no further to any material from those arts)...". --Antiquary (talk) 08:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't know the level at which you can contribute, but there are many notable topics on which we do not have an article. One example is pseudospin, a concept used in the description of the quantum state of two-level systems. One readable treatment can be found here; a different approach to introducing the concept can be seen here. It would probably be best to start with a relatively simple stub article. We already have an article on the Bloch sphere and a redirect from Bloch vector to that article. --Lambiam 08:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 3

Official website of Sumiton, Alabama

What is the official website of Sumiton, Alabama? The domain thecityofsumiton.com has been usurped, and I am unsure if thecityofsumiton.org is the new official site. Cherry Cotton Candy (talk) 09:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Psychology

Which of the Big Five personality traits is the most closely correlated with self-confidence? Camph26 (talk) 13:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People who score high on neuroticism are more likely to interpret ordinary situations as threatening and can perceive minor frustrations as hopelessly difficult. This is negatively correlated with self-confidence. In fact, here the neuroticism trait is called "a measure of a person's emotional stability and self-confidence". --Lambiam 13:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Inheriting our looks

Another Wikipedian famously posted images of their son and daughter. Their son looks exactly like them and their daughter looks exactly like their wife. However, this isn't true at all with my relatives. All joking aside, why do some children end up looking exactly like their parents while others do not? In my family, for example, we all, both on my mother's and my father's side, take after our grandfathers, great-grandfathers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers, not our immediate parents. This also goes for my first cousins, who do not look like their parents but their grandfathers and great-grandfathers. Any ideas? And yes, I've had genetic testing done, and my parents are my parents. :-) Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pure chance. An individual's more striking facial features are largely determined by a limited number of genes. Biological inheritance is a complicated subject, but the expected distribution of specific gene combinations can reasonably be assumed to be governed by Mendelian inheritance. Every now and then the random gene shuffles in combination with such phenomena as dominance will produce offspring looking much more like one parent than the other, or more like an ancestor of an earlier generation. --Lambiam 05:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Surely someone has studied the "Mini-Me" phenomenon, where a parent produces offspring that looks somewhat identical to themselves? Viriditas (talk) 09:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just had a very similar conversation with a reference person and he showed me multiple studies. It turned out that soft tissue is based on a very small set of genes and human facial recognition is biased by soft tissue structures, mainly the nose and ears. That is why when you look at a family, you notice that they all pretty much have the same nose and ears. It is also why there is the affect that people from a different countries tend to look alike, because your brain is simply telling you that their noses and ears look different and they all get clumped together. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 13:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then there is the issue that in mate selection there is a preferential tendency for mates whose faces appear similar to one's own face.^[8] This increases the likelihood of spitting-image offspring. --Lambiam 15:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 5