Talk:Louisa May Alcott

New image

i replaced Image:louisa_may_alcott_stamp.JPG with a new image. If someone would like to place the stamp image somewhere else in the article, please do. Kingturtle 00:01 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Civil War Volunteer work

I know that L.M.A. Volunteered in the civil war, but this article states nothing about what she did! (I was looking for that for an assignment.) Could someone please find out and pop in a section, possibly titled "War Times" or similar.

Much Appreciated,
Vikedal 15:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that her work "Hospitality Sketches from the Civil War" published in 1863 would be useful to this section. I will reread and see if I can get some information in. Dawn742 (talk) 17:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@ Dawn742 I've added some information to this section in the past couple weeks (it's in "Hospital Sketches"). If you find anything else to add to this section, it would be great if you could add it! Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 21:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Comments

Hi Heidi Pusey BYU, I've been watching your work here and am thrilled to see the progress. It's an article that's been on my watchlist since forever with the intention of someday getting to it with a rewrite. But I never had access to good sources and more than a decade slipped by as the article never received the attention it deserves. So congrats on a job well done. I'm posting a few comments in the subsections below, about issues that I noticed when I started reading through. Victoria (tk) 23:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Names

It's really awkward when writing about a family and using surnames. My suggestion would be to follow the advice laid out in the essay Wikipedia:Writing about women, specifically the second paragraph in the "Use surnames" section which says First names are sometimes needed for clarity. For example, when writing about a family with the same surname, after the initial introductions they can all be referred to by first names. A first name might also be used when a surname is long and double-barreled, and its repetition would be awkward to read and write. When a decision is made to use first names for editorial reasons, use them for both women and men.

In this case I'd introduce each family member with full name (first name, last name), i.e Bronson Alcott, Abigail Alcott and Louisa May Alcott, and thereafter use first names, i.e, Bronson, Abigail and Louisa. Furthermore, it's probably better to refer to the mother with the more formal "Abigail" rather than the informal "Abba". Victoria (tk) 23:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for looking at this and giving feedback! I have also felt that the surnames were a bit awkward, so I'm glad to know that using first names is allowed. Good point about the mother, as well. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

In this case, yes, I'd say it's much less awkward to use first names. And if it's challenged, there's this thread to point to. And I'll be watching the article. So, no worries. Victoria (tk) 22:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I'm Heidi's supervisor at the BYU Library, and I am not sure if referring to Alcott by her first name in the article adheres to MOS:SAMESURNAME ("When referring to the person who is the subject of the article, use just the surname unless the reference is part of a list of family members or if use of the surname alone will be confusing"). To me, it makes sense to refer to Alcott as Louisa in sections that discuss her other family members a lot (like the Early Life section and "Life in Dedham" sub-section). However, I think sections and paragraphs that don't mention her other family members as much, like "Literary success" should refer to her as "Alcott." What do you think Victoria? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

A solution has been put forth for situations such as these by a a now deceased editor in the essay Wikipedia:Writing about women, which in my view, applies here. However, I'm simply an unpaid volunteer, and I'm not interested in conflict. So, let's let it go, as well as my other suggestions. Will cease to muddy the waters and unwatch the page. Best, Victoria (tk) 19:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't my intention to silence you, Victoria. I'm asking you as someone who is invested in this page how you think we should proceed. I've been giving Heidi editorial advice behind the scenes, and you identified some issues that we should address (which I missed). I love SV's essay about writing about women and I recommend it to all my students. I think that using the first name for Louisa can be very helpful in distinguishing her from her other family members. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes! We value your feedback very much, Victoria. I apologize if I haven't made that come across very well. (To be frank, I'm excited that you're excited about Louisa May Alcott.) If you're still interested in collaborating on this, I'd love to continue. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 20:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Works

Instead of focusing much on the works, use this page to bulk up everything we know about Louisa May Alcott and then use the individual works pages to spin out info about each book. If there's isn't an article, redlink it and either start it yourself, or hope someone might come along and start it. My sense is that this page is getting quite long, and might do better if some info is spun off elsewhere. See for instance how I structured Jane Austen. All that's lacking in that main bio page is finishing the themes and style section, which I've not quite finished but have sandboxed. Also while digging around, note how many subarticles there are. That's all for now. Please don't hesitate to ask questions if you have any. Victoria (tk) 23:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, here's a proposal. I could remove the sections on Moods and Work. I could also remove most of the second paragraph of Hospital Sketches and rename it to something like Civil war service. The context of Little Women and Little Men is pivotal to Alcott's life and I want to leave it in, so would you recommend I shorten those sections by removing the plots and the critical success? I don't think I have much else to add to the article at this point. Once again, thank you Victoria! Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

In order that the research is not lost, I could transfer the information I found about her works to their main articles. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, newish idea because I like the way you structured Jane Austen. I noticed that the "Published author" section largely focused on her novels in general. Perhaps that would be a good way to handle Louisa May Alcott's literary success. What I mean is that perhaps instead of dedicating so much space and several little sections to her works, we could consolidate it, remove the plots, and make it more general. For example: Instead of naming the individual times she was surprised when a book sold well, it could be more general, such as "Louisa May Alcott was surprised when her first few novels sold well." Of course the phrasing would be more polished, but hopefully you get the idea. What do you think? Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Yep, consolidate, remove the plots, adhere to summary style, and spin out whatever can be spun out. I've not dug into it yet, so give me a few days to see what there is for subarticles and what can be created. For examples take a look also at the structure of Ernest Hemingway and Ezra Pound and even H.D. Sadly our literature editors have mostly left the project but examples of literature biographies at featured article level can be found on the user pages of User:Yllosubmarine, User:Moni3 and User:Wadewitz. Wadewitz wrote most of Jane Austen then I took over but have let it languish. Anyway, you might find some inspiration in those articles. Once I get a chance to look through what you have here, I'll post again. Victoria (tk) 23:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good! Also, I've started on Work: A Story of Experience in hopes of expanding it (and I'll move some of the info from this article to that one). I happen to know that Adri-at-BYU is interested in creating a page for the novel Moods, likely starting on it in the near future. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources

I've been performing some research on some of the sources used in the article, including ones that I added. Here I will include my findings. Louisa May Alcott: A Modern Biography by Martha Saxton appears to be a questionable biography. Saxton's fellow Alcott scholars (such as Ruth K. MacDonald and Geraldine Brooks) have pointed out that Saxton goes too far in her psychoanalysis of Alcott and sets her up as a victim of her father. The biography is not neutral and I am considering removing it as a source. A Hunger for Home by Sarah Elbert is mostly biographical but also discusses Alcott's major works. Ruth K. MacDonald has called it one of the best biographies about Alcott. Kate Beaird Meyers from the University of Tulsa has explained that the 1987 edition, which is the one used for this article, is better than the 1984 edition. Invincible Louisa by Cornelia Meigs is a biography written for children. It won the Newbery Medal.

For those who wish to verify my findings, I include the links:

SAXTON: https://www.jstor.org/stable/364624 and https://muse.jhu.edu/article/246027 —Ruth K. MacDonald, Alcott biographer

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2006/may/06/featuresreviews.guardianreview6 -Geraldine Brooks, author of March

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3177865 -Karen Halttunen, professor of history and American studies at University of southern California; look at page 245

ELBERT: https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/1/article/248352 —Ruth K. MacDonald

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25679037 —Kate Beaird Meyers, works at University of Tulsa

https://kb.osu.edu/bitstreams/14eafe49-d126-5028-abb5-284208b5fcb8/download —Maria Goodchild, English professor at Ohio State University Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 19:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Heidi, as it happens I was just looking at Saxton based on a comment on Rachel's page. So a couple of replies:

1. any source that's more than 50 years old probably should be eliminated.
2. any source that appears to be a blog, random webpage, or somesuch should be eliminated.
3. there are citation errors that need resolving. Please read User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors regarding errors. There's a script that easy to install, as described in the "Installation" section. Otherwise others will have to fix the errors.
4. the links above should be added to the citations.
5. books need identifiers such as ISBN numbers. (Not required, but makes finding them easier).

I took a look at the first sentence of the first occurrence of Saxton (first sentence, second para, in the "Birth and early childhood" section. The sentence says: Louisa kept a journal at as early as six-years-old. Bronson and Abigail often read it and left short messages for her on her pillow, encouraging her to be well-behaved. Delamar does not say she was aged six when she started keeping a journal (six years old in this context doesn't take hyphens); Saxton tells us Abigail Bronson left notes on her pillow (be careful of close paraphrasing), Moses doesn't tell us anything other than the journal was started early in childhood (and it should be eliminated as a source). This in only the first sentence I've looked at, so, unfortunately I'll be looking through more carefully. In terms of whether it's NPOV, Bronson was not a stern man, to say the least. It's difficult to tell without looking more closely.

Off topic, but please take a look at WP:Overlink. Victoria (tk) 19:50, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding: in a 30 second search I found, Whispers in the dark : the fiction of Louisa May Alcott and The world of Louisa May Alcott : a first-time glimpse into the life and times of Louisa May Alcott, author of "Little Women". Might be worth taking a look at. Victoria (tk) 20:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding: Matteson won a Pulitzer Prize for Eden's Outcasts, so suggest swapping out that for Saxton's A Modern Biography. That said, Saxton is probably fine for basic facts. Victoria (tk) 20:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

reflist
References

Do you think you could point me to what sources you noticed are blogs? Most of the websites were already sourced on the page before I started editing, so I'm not really familiar with them. Also, it was probably Saxton who said Alcott was six; since I'm probably removing that source, that will also be removed. I do not have access to Eden's Outcasts, but you're right--that will be a good source. The older sources I used mostly to supplement the newer sources, so they can easily be removed. I'll fix the hyphen thing, and feel free to make changes of your own. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Whispers in the Dark is a good source, but it focuses on analysis of Alcott's works, making it a good source for articles about her individual works. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 22:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Regarding blogs, I clicked on something randomly and it took me to a blog. I'll go through again and search for it.

Re Eden's Outcasts, it might be interesting to try your library's ILL (Interlibrary loan). It's brilliant; any book from anywhere in the country can be sent to your institution.

Yes, agree about Whispers in the Dark - it seems to focus on individual works. I only glanced quickly and wondered if there was biographical material woven throughout.

Re cutting Saxton; be judicious, is the best advice. We don't want to lose facts like Concord Academy and without Matteson, you may need to lean on Saxton more than you want. I believe the material regarding Bronson is generally correct; of all the transcendentalists he was the most rigid. From the review I glanced at, the issue is about his relationship with Louisa.

Finally - I understand this is information overload and both your time and remit are limited. Take your time and please please don't feel pressure from me. I'll take care of the citation errors when I get a chance to run through the article, and I'll give it a copyedit. You've done a stellar job here and have the makings of a strong Wikipedian. Anyway, I'm backing off for now and will swing back through in a few days. In the meantime think about sources and time allocation and stuff like that. And give yourself a pat on the back for the work you've done here. Victoria (tk) 23:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the constructive feedback. Just for clarification, by time allocation do you mean the amount of time I spend on revisions, or do you mean proportions of different events in the article? I think you might mean the former, but I just want to double check. As far as Whispers goes, I'll skim through to see if there is any biographical content. Regarding Saxton, I have kept some information that was sketchy in other biographies, such as dates (Saxton was the best at providing dates; some of the chronology in others was a bit difficult to sort out). There are some bits I removed that I may restore, such as being tended by Elizabeth Peabody. I'm going to keep out Saxton's information about Alcott's father since that's the biggest issue with the biography. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Not so quick reply: so yesterday I read Macdonald's review of Martha Saxton, JSTOR 364624, and then had only a small amount of time to find & very briefly to read a blurb about Matteson's Eden's Outcasts, which seems to cover the same territory (Bronson & Louisa's relationship), but unlike Saxton, Matteson received a Pulitzer Prize and it was published fairly recently. So I thought it would take me some time to compare the two sources. It takes time to research sources; it takes time to determine which sources are better than others; it takes time to read, take notes, and then to write. That's what I meant by time allocation. This morning I found that my local library system holds Eden's Outcasts and placed a hold. This evening before tidying this talk page (so that it archives), I found and interesting review of Eden's Outcasts (JSTOR 25650739) that I've scanned but needs a deeper reading because it's fairly long and explains how Bronson and Louisa's lives were inextricably woven together (beyond the father/daughter relationship). Given the "Critical reception" to avoid WP:UNDUE issues, maybe Matteson needs to be researched a bit more, the book found, read, digested, and material from it added here. And then a similar process applies to other sources. If that makes sense?

Just to be clear, if you're unable to locate a copy of Matteson, then I can put info in from that source when it arrives to my local library branch. I'm not saying you have to go through all of this. All I'm saying is that it takes time on topics this big to figure out how to allocate time to research, write, rewrite, format citations & so on. Victoria (tk) 00:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep! Makes sense. Let me know if you want to look through the Eden's Outcasts review or if you'd like me to do it—I know your time is limited. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I read the review the other day and will take a look at the book whenever it arrives and I can get to the library. My advice is to follow your interests: read the review if you're interested or curious. It's on jstor, here's the link again (JSTOR 25650739). Victoria (tk) 15:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding: see my comment to Rachel below, link. In my view some sources need to go, and swapped for others. The "Further reading" section is stuffed (and a mess after years of no tending), so if until you get the go-ahead for Matteson you might find something there that's useful. But Matteson seems to be the source to use. Victoria (tk) 20:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Whispers in the Dark has very little biographical information. However, the introduction will be helpful for the genre section. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

So it will be somewhat helpful. That's good. Victoria (tk) 15:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I've removed some occurrences of the 1909 Moses biography. There are still some there, but they will be addressed. I am currently working on another project, so it's going to take at least a week to address some things. Adri-at-BYU is also going to work on addressing some of these things.

I agree that newspaper articles about Alcott's life should be replaced with information from biographies. However, I do think some web sources should remain; for example, the National Women's Hall of Fame should remain, since it provides the information about Alcott's induction. The websites that discuss Alcott's possible new pseudonym should remain, as should those that discuss the novels written about Alcott. I made sure to take these from reliable sources (these are the web sources I did add). I added some web sources for the movies based on her works—are the movie ones some of the ones you're concerned about? Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 20:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Those are probably all good decisions. I was working quickly and didn't take the time to match up each source to its ref. Things like lousiamayalcott.net can go & be swapped w/ book sources. The others have to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Victoria (tk) 22:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Citation clean up

I spent some time cleaning citations but there's still a lot to do. In my view, that's the first place to start. The sources don't need links to google books, and definitely don't need links complete with search strings. The "website" section should probably be evaluated. Some could be swapped out for scholarly biographies. There are still error tags but I'm not finding the errors; will swing through again later in a day or two to work in this. Am very tired at the moment. Victoria (tk) 20:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I will start working on removing links to Google books; that's good to know. Should links to journal articles remain?

I can take a closer look at the websites; there are a couple that can be removed altogether and replaced with information in biographies, like you said. Sorry about the citation errors—I wish I could help but I'm not sure what's going on. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:41, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I'm going to keep the links to the Google books and just fix the links. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 18:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I've got it on my list to see about switching some websites out for scholarly biographies. Also, Victoriaearle if you have time, would you mind sharing where the citation errors are showing up? I installed what you suggested and the test page worked for me, so I can't tell if you've already fixed things or if something isn't working on my end. Adri-at-BYU (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to fiddle with it later and see what's going on. If I click the edit button to open the entire article instead of section editing, I get error messages but I can't find them. It's possible they're being picked up in the "Further reading" section, or being picked up because fields are missing in the citations. I'm not seeing clear messages in the references, so it's weird. It could be a caching error on my end. Will try troubleshooting later. The more important task is to make sure all the needed fields are supplied, i.e, isbns and so on. But again, I didn't look too closely yesterday - was just moving stuff around to resolve the most noticable errors. Victoria (tk) 21:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Length

Earlier this summer, Heidi and I discussed the length of the "early life" section. We agreed that all of the information in it now is relevant to Alcott's writing, so it shouldn't simply be cut. However, pages like Early life of John Milton exist. We could create a separate sub-page for Alcott's early life if that part seems a bit long. Thoughts? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

That doesn't seem necessary. According to wordcount, using Wikipedia:Prosesize ( a gadget, instructions there on the linked page), this page seems okay, especially when compared to Jane Austen for intance. Ultimately it depends on the sources: if they devote material to the early life, then this page should too. Victoria (tk) 15:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Rachel Helps (BYU), I spent a number of hours today working through the first bit of the article and there are many more issues to address than considering a split. I strongly suggest helping Heidi access the most recent biography, available at BYU, link, so that the 1909 source, the websources (newspapers and such), and blogs i.,e louisamayalcott.net, can all be swapped out (this is what I meant in regard to sourcing). Furthermore, I don't believe Saxton is biased; in my view she simply comes to a wrong conclusion, but the facts can still be used. However, since Matteson is more recent & well regarded, using that seems like an okay compromise. Then the TOC can probably be flattened and maybe the structure tweaked a bit. But doesn't seem to be any reason for a split. Victoria (tk) 20:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to work on removing the 1909 source; I haven't yet because I've been working on another project. From what I remember, most of the information from Moses can be found in the other biographies I used. I now have a copy of Eden's Outcasts that I'm going to look at, but not until I take care of some of the citations. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no hurry at all! Happy to hear to you have a copy of Eden's Outcasts. I was at the library today but haven't yet received the copy I requested, but I live in the boonies & stuff takes a while. There also seems to be huge trove of sources in the "Further reading" if needed. Victoria (tk) 22:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Structure

Heidi, don't be dismayed to find the article structure somewhat changed to when you return to it. In the process of copyediting, I flattened the TOC (table of contents) a little but ran out of energy - that was before I tackled what I thought would be the easy job of resolving citation errors - and am now very tired. Will get back to it later. It might be better to explain in a sentence or two why the moved so often - Pennsylvania to Boston to Scituate to Concord to Harvard & environs, back to Concord and then back to Boston. Then, it might make sense simply to all of that in a single section. But it's impossible to tell without good sources, and I'd like to wait until I receive the biography I ordered before fiddling with it more. Also, I had some questions while editing, some are in the edit summaries, some are in hidden commentary in the text. If you're confused, let me know. Victoria (tk) 20:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I found your comments. I answered one of the hidden comments, but I'll also answer here. The school that Anna and Louisa ran was different from the school she ran earlier; I will clarify this. I will also clarify your other questions, if possible. I appreciate your structure changes, especially regarding her early childhood and education. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 17:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clarifying about the school. It confused me, and if it confuses me it's confusing the readers. There's still more to be done with the structure. I think I left a short stubby paragraph (we try to avoid those) in the section about Fruitlands failing, but it will get integrated eventually. To me Wikipedia is a rough draft, never the final draft, and there's always room for playing around with things to see where they fit, whether on the sentence level, the parapraph level or the article level. I don't know how my time will go this week, but it'll probably be some days before I can dip back in. Victoria (tk) 22:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good! It's always good to have someone point out if something is confusing. And I agree; there's always room for improvement, and people can work together/experiment to make it happen. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Continuing work

Hello all! I've just gotten back from a trip and am planning to see what I can do about citation errors (if I can figure that out) and replacing some things with the Matteson source. To everyone participating, thanks for all your work! Adri-at-BYU (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)