Talk:Far-right politics

Lack of neutrality

This article to does not view far right politics the same way as it does view far-left politics. While the one on the left does mention authoritarianism, as for the right it says it was inheritly authoritarian, which is not the case. This may not belong in the article, but right-libertarians often lean further to the right, see their view when it comes to freedom of speech (as we can see they, they even wish to have the swastika to be covered by the constiution). Keep in mind this is my personal experience, not a decided fact, I however do wish a bit more neutrality to be actually apolitical. MrLW97 (talk) 18:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I am not that thrilled with right-libertarianism, but it is a modern extension of anti-statism as an ideology and laissez-faire as an economic principle. Where do you see similarities with the ultranationalism of the far-right, its "hatred of foreigners", its pursuit of "territorial expansion", and its support for political violence to achieve its goals? When was the last time you heard of a libertarian "carrying out acts of violence and hate crimes against immigrants" ... and "ethnic minorities" like some of the European ultranationalist parties? Dimadick (talk) 21:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

The difference between far right and far left is that while far right refers to a specific group of ideologies, far left is a vague term that merely means whatever part to his or her left the speaker finds unacceptable. The ideologies that are part of the far right are in fact authoritarian, while some on the far left, such as anarchism or the Biden administration, are not. TFD (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces Biden administration? That’s a joke, right? Doug Weller talk 22:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I think TFD is indicating that some people (elements of the GOP, for example) call the Biden administration far-left. TFD's point is that the term "far-left" can mean whatever it needs to depending on who is saying it.

(I disagree, but that's a discussion we've had elsewhere and I don't want to enter WP:FORUM territory) — Czello ^(music) 22:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't call Biden far left, but my point is that someone on the extreme right might because they place people on the spectrum differently. They see themselves as being in the center so Biden must be on the far left. Reliable sources however have described  Biden as being on the left, which could place AOC and Sanders on the far left. OTOH, far left could refer to groups to the left of Communist parties. it's a relative term that can mean different things depending on context.

The reason for this is that we don't have other terms to describe their ideologies. There is no other term that groups the KKK and the Nazi Party for example, while other parties typically self-identify with an ideology that is shared across national boundaries. TFD (talk) 23:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

It may well be true that "far left" is used by those of a right-leaning persuasion to refer to anyone significantly to the left of their ideology. But to suggest that "far right" is not used in the same way by those of a left-leaning political outlook is utterly false. The "far right" tag is often applied by those on the political left to refer to views which only a few years ago were generally considered to be just slightly to the right or even fairly central. Don't fall into the trap of believing that the "far" tag is not applied in a similar way by both sides of the political spectrum. 70.178.140.205 (talk) 03:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Certainly people misuse terms. But can you find a better term to describe political ideologies and movements that are to the right of mainstream right-wing parties such as conservatives, Christian democrats and liberals? TFD (talk) 05:31, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

totalitarianism authoritarian is far left

Far right, (on left you have extreme totalitarianism authoritarianism to the far right of total self autonomy). Nazi or national socialism Is still far left even if some consider nationalism on the right. Nationalism of no extreme is moderate. Far right exceeds any need of nationalism as it is full anarchy for self autonomy (full freedom as long as it is not i fringing on others). What infringements occur it goes full left as that is authoritarianism. 2603:7080:2C01:EA7:F031:C781:F39F:4910 (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

See the #FAQ at the top of this page; this is a definition of far-right/left that isn't recognised by historians and politican scientists. — Czello ^(music) 15:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

This article is a mess

Not sure how I landed here, but this article is a staggering mess. The sourcing relies far too heavily on primary sources, most of which do not have secondary sourcing to establish due weight. This has lead to a great deal of original research and synthesis to be infused into the article. I went through and tried to verify a bunch of the content, and in many cases the cited sources do not support the text attached to the cite. Just a mess. TheMissingMuse (talk) 19:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you give an example or two? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Example passage:

In United States politics, the terms "extreme right", "far-right", and "ultra-right" are labels used to describe "militant forms of insurgent revolutionary right ideology and separatist ethnocentric nationalism"

The cited source appears to be a self published webpage hosted on http://www.publiceye.org. This primary source only mentions far-right only once in passing:

Ultra Right (Sometimes called Far Right or Extreme Right)

TheMissingMuse (talk) 19:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I do think we should seek out a stronger source for the broad definition/overview statement. In the meantime, I've at least attributed the quoted material to its publisher. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "attributing quoted material to it's publisher". The sentence isn't supported by the citation. TheMissingMuse (talk) 19:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

It is. The source establishes "far right" as synonymous with those other terms (as is common) and then provides a definition. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

No, the self published source states that Ultra Right is sometimes called Far Right. That's a very different claim than saying it's synonymous. The source doesn't support the text, and the source shouldn't be used in the first place without secondary sourcing establishing due weight of the source. TheMissingMuse (talk) 19:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The source, which is secondary, is saying that the terms are used synonymously, and it provides a definition for their shared synonymous meaning. Certainly, all the terms can be used differently, but it provides one common usage that aligns with the topic of this page. I agree that there are likely stronger sources, but it's not problematic enough to remove. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

It's certainly not a secondary source. It's the source that made the claim. And no, you're engaging in synthesis when you say that "sometimes used" is the same things as "synonymous". Like I said, the article is a mess, and it's full of this kind of bad sourcing, OR and synthesis. You might approve of this misuse of sourcing, but that doesn't change the fact that the sourcing is bad. TheMissingMuse (talk) 19:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

In some sense, providing a definition is "making a claim", but such an odd view invalidates the primary/secondary/tertiary distinction. I'd prefer to use a more common sense understanding. I'm very happy to see the sourcing improved, but it appears your understanding of the sourcing flaws is itself quite flawed. See below for more examples. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I have a very solid understanding of sourcing. Your implication that a public eye web page is a reliable secondary source not incorrect. From WP:SECONDARY: A secondary source provides thought and reflection based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. The webpage cites no primary sources, and presents specific claims in it's own voice. It is neither WP:SCHOLARLY nor from a news organization. It is WP:QUESTIONABLE source from an organization with a clear WP:BIAS, and cannot be used to establish WP:DUE weight. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Another example:

The skinhead culture gained momentum during the late 1980s and peaked during the late 1990s. Numerous hate crimes were committed against refugees, including a number of racially motivated murders.

is supported by two cites:

• [foreign language source with no content]
• [self published paper]

Neither of these citations are strong enough to support content without secondary sourcing supporting the citation, and inclusion here is undue. TheMissingMuse (talk) 19:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• • The Helsingin sanomat is Finnish, which makes sense, and I've updated the citation url (and archive). The Ravndal paper link is to a free version of his peer-reviewd article published in Terrorism and Political Violence. Will update the citation info later, as I'm stepping away for a bit. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Not a forum for your perceptions of Wikipedia
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This article is extremely biased like most political articles on Wikipedia. Clearly a lot more opinion here than fact, but Wikipedia has become extremely left wing and unreliable. Until someone comes along in authority to set down some neutral ground rules it will continue to be that way unfortunately.Bjoh249 (talk) 21:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC) I would concur that there is some significant left-wing bias on Wikipedia, due in large part to the nature of who is most likely to edit Wikipedia. However, this article, out of all article on a politically contentious topic, does an excellent job in keeping away from significant bias, I would argue, and is largely factual, though not without error. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 18:43, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Regarding The Image At The Top Of The Page

About a year ago, there was a weak consensus that the image at the top of the page should be of the American "Unite the Right" rally, rather than the picture of the Austrian Identitarian protest that has also often been on the page, and was on the page for a long time prior. This was largely because of how the "Unite the Right" rally was more recognizable and relevant. However, given the significant recent rise of the European far-right, the original has frequently (accidentally against consensus) been restored, likely because the original Identitarian protest is now a better representation of the "far-right" globally, one which is now significantly more relevant, recognizable, and representative than the "Unite the Right" rally. I, personally, would agree with this stance, and I am writing here to ask whether other Wikipedia writers, on the whole, agree:

Should the original image of Austrian Identitarians be restored, or should the Unite the Right rally image remain? JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

If nobody has any objection over the next few days, I will switch the image back. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 14:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with a European image, but we don't need to change images to match current trends in far-right politics. Two reasons given in the last discussion for preferring the status quo are that it represents an event that got a lot of international media coverage and that it includes recognizable symbols of the far right. If an image from another country can be found that has those characteristics, I think many of us would be happy to consider it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This is my reason exactly - I think that the Identitarian protest is probably more recognizable at a global level, while outside of the US, the Unite The Right Rally might not be very recognizable, compared with the "rise of the European far-right" being plastered over every newspaper everywhere for such a long time as of late.

Something like an AfD rally might be both more recognizable and more significant, though there will inevitably be some people who might change it back saying "thEy'Re nOt tHaT FaR-RiGHt." JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 18:12, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no need to reopen this settled matter. The reason why the current image is obviously substantially better is that it shows two of the most relevant flags/emblems of both European and American far-right politics: The swastika and the Confederate battle flag respectively, both of which are recognised internationally and have both historic and contemporary significance. It isn't about the Unite The Right rally specifically. It illustrates the far-right as a whole. An AfD rally would not be as good as a lead picture because German law prevents them from using the most recognisable symbols that they would like to use. Of course, if there is a good picture of an AfD (or similar) rally then we can add it to the Germany section. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:43, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: I've added the best picture I could find. It's good because it shows two of the specific things that the German far-right is into at the moment: complaining about Muslims and moaning about "censorship". --DanielRigal (talk) 21:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

neutral point of view seems bias

From Wiki: "Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information." However under Far-Right the photo is of hate groups like Nazi's. The far-left photo is a nice peaceful congress looking photo. These two do seem "Neutral" and not agenda driven at all(sarcasm intended!). 69.195.29.42 (talk) 15:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The word you want is "biased." Hate groups are most prominent on the Right. Do you have any suggestions for images of scary leftists? They are a lot harder to find these days than images of Nazis. We are not obligated to create false symmetry by assuming that each component of society or politics has an equal and opposite mirror. Acroterion (talk) 15:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Ultraconservatism

Little to no examples, what makes it "far right" 212.37.17.254 (talk) 01:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Please quickly add a link to "Far-left"

Could someone quickly just add a link where it says "far left" to the "Far-left politics" wikipedia artickle. Plus why is there quotation marks on it? I know the political portal is right there but please. I don't know if anyone can see but I edited the source instead of making a topic because I can't find the button. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezed2K (talk • contribs) 19:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

The the

Could someone take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Far-right_politics&oldid=prev&diff=1213156550 and decide whether my edit (adding "the" to make "the majority") ought to stand or not? I don't see how the sentence is grammatical without it, but Doug clearly thinks that it can be.

(Please forgive me for my lack of knowledge of the etiquette for handling such questions - I am very much an occasional editor, mostly for grammar and formatting issues, so I don't consider myself part of the "insider" community.) STeamTraen (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I can't see the term in the source, but the original edit was what I restored it to, no "the'.[1] Doug Weller talk 12:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Meant to add thanks for posting, don't worry about being an occasional editor. The two words need to be taken together as a singular thing, not a adjective and noun. Doug Weller talk 12:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Political bias

First thing I want to say, is that even though it is said in the frequentely asked questions that the nazi party was far-right due to what was know at the time as far-right, I want to say that political intervetion on private property to make its function to serve the government and the society doesn't look far right. What I mean is, nazism and fascism are complex ideologies that should be classified neither as right or left, if you study you will find out many similarities between fascism and marxism, but I still wouldn't say it's left wing, both are complex ideologies that have their own characteristics, and shouldn't be labeled as far right, to prove my point, I will send here some books about fascism:

A History of Fascism, On page 8 it's written: "Fascism was not, however, nihilistic as many critics charged. Rather, it rejected many established values - wheter left, right, or center".

Anatomy of Fascism, On page 11 it's written: "It becomes hard to locate fascism on the familiar Right-Left political map. Did the fascist leaders themselves know, at the beginning? When Mussolini called his friends together at the Piazza San Sepolcro in March 1919, it was not entirely clear that he was trying to compete with his former collegues in the Italian Socialist Party on the Left, or attack them frontally from the Right. Where on the Italian political spectrum would what he still sometimes called "national syndicalism" find its place? Indeed, fascism always retained that ambiguity". And in the next page he wrote: "The ultimate fascist response to the Left-Right political map was to claim that they made obsolete by being "neither Right or Left," transcending such outdated divisions and uniting the nation".

Neither Right or Left: Facist Ideology in France, An entire book about fascism being neither from the right or from the left.

Now another thing that I want to say is, far-right by definition is not tied to racism, and other things like that, there are racist idiots who are far right, but that doesn't make the entire far-right racist. I have many friends that are far-right, none of them are racist or any of the things said in this article, but all of them are really conservative, with that I mean, this article ties far-right with racism and other things like that a lot of times, while it should be said maybe just when talking about some political groups (idiots) that are far-right.

I will not compare to the far-left article, I will instead compare to a better article in portuguese about far-right, the article is from Politize, and it's name is "O que é Extrema Direita?" ("What is Far Right?"). That article tells all the characteristics that makes the far-right while not taking sides or making a accusation that is purely political.

I would like to edit this page about far-right, I would delete most parts that link far-right with hate speech due to it being more political than it is academic, and I would also add a note saying that both fascism and nazism have controversy about the political spectrum and many does not consider it being far-right, hope you can understand.

(I removed all external links from this message). Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 22:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

In case someone says those books are not reliable:

A History of Fascism, published by the University of Wisconsin Press

Anatomy of Fascism, published by Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group

Neither Right or Left: Facist Ideology in France, published by the University of Princeton Press Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is that you are trying to argue that what interpretation you think should take priority over what is widely accepted, and over what other people might think should. This isn't going anywhere. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The thing I am trying to say, is that it's NOT widely accepted as you say, and I did prove that Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 23:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

In the book: Origins And Doctrine Of Fascism, Gentile himself wrote that on page 33 that the fascists did got inspirations and learned from the Marxists, this by itself already proves that you can not just classify as far-right and call it a day, it was more complex than that, and many respected authors agree Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

"The Fascist, on the other hand, conceives philosophy as a philosophy of practice (praxis). That concept was the product of certain Marxist and Sorellian inspirations (many Fascists and the Duce, himself, received their first intellectual education in the school of Marx and Sorel)"

- Giovanni Gentile Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 23:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Giovanni Gentile? This guy? Really? OK. Let's start with the very basics. Fascists lie. What they say about themselves is always self-serving and deeply suspect. Of course, they pitched themselves as some sort of "third position". It was an effective way to bid for support from both right and left. Did they know it was dishonest? Of course. Did they care? Of course not. Fascists lie whenever it suits them to. Is it true that they copied a few ideas from the left? Sure. We are not trying to hide that. Does this have much bearing on the fundamental nature of Fascism? No. Was it effective in confusing people as to the nature of Fascism? Somewhat, yes, but after 1945 most people wised up pretty damn quickly. That post-war academic consensus is what we reflect in this article and in the FAQ. What Gentile had to say on the topic before being shot in 1944 is neither here nor there. DanielRigal (talk) 23:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

So your answer to that is: "He lied, because I know the truth". What you said is basically: "I think that there is a consensus, therefore, this consensus is always right and everything else is not true".

And yes, knowing that he indeed had inspirations from the Marxists make us think a little more about the complexity of the fascism, and just like I showed you with the books I said, there is no consesus like you keep trying to say, many say otherwise.

What I am just trying to do, is edit the page to say that there is controversy and no such thing as a consensus (if there was, those books published by big and respected universities would not exist), while some may say fascism and nazism is far-right, many also say it's neither left or right. Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 23:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, if you think about politics and economics, you will get to the same answer, neither left or right Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 23:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Read he FAQ, this is not a matter of debate in any reputable academic sources. We're not here to muddle or whitewash history to suit individual editors. Acroterion (talk) 00:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Are Princeton and Wisconsin Universities not good enough for you?

It's not about "whitewashing" history, it's about proving that there is no consensus

And if you are not paying attention, nothing that I said is on the FAQ Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 00:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Even Roger Griffin, the same author who is used in the article about fascism to say that it's far-right, he says in the book The Nature of Fascism, in the same paragraph on page 50 that he wrote "It seems reasonable to regard it for pratical purposes as a sub-category of the ultra-right but with special qualities of its own, that is we are dealing once again with a particular and thus unique manifestation of a generic ideal type", he also wrote in the same paragraph: "Not only does the location of fascism within the right pose taxonomic problems, there are good grounds for cutting this particular Gordian knot altogether by placing it in a category of its own 'beyond left and right'." Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 01:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Pulling reasonable discussion of exceptions and qualifications of broad statements out of individual texts is not the same as showing a broad academic consensus for including waffling over whether there is a consensus. You will need to find appropriate sources that describe overall consensus of academic studies consensus, not cherry-picked details. Acroterion (talk) 01:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

If is that so, show the academic consesus you all say, because what I did was prove by different sources even the one that is the one used for saying that fascism is far-right, that there is no such thing as consensus that you all say, its not "cherry-picked details", you can go ahead and read it yourself, I provided the source and the exact page, and also read the books that I mentioned, because you completely ignored that, even knowing that the source is a famous university for two of them. Pedro Cunha de Oliveirap (talk) 01:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Read the source and its references; you're trying to take individual reasonable equivocation to make broad statements about academic consensus; i.e., cherry-picking. And read the FAQ. Again. The burden is on you to support your suggested changes, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And in any case, this article is about the far-right politics, broadly speaking, not just about fascism. Acroterion (talk) 02:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

"fascists lie"

Don't communists lie too? They're used as sources for articles relating to Marxism, communism, far-left politics, etc., yet they're not any more honest than a fascist or a Nazi. BozzaNova69 (talk) 02:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you considered reading the FAQ? Talk:Far-right_politics/FAQ Andre🚐 02:28, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

They do, but shifting the focus to communism may serve as a Straw man, much in the same way certain aspects from the sources listed by OP are possibly Cherry picking. DN (talk) 03:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Reliability does not depend on the writer's perspective. However, people who promote anti-Semitism, transphobia, climate change denial etc. rely on lies to support their opinions and therefore their views are not taken seriously in reliable sources. If you have a problem with this, get the policy changed. TFD (talk) 04:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)