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This article was selected as the article for improvement on 28 October 2013 for a period of one week.
Steam kebab was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 February 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Kebab. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
I fixed a grammar error on this page citing the region of origin. The previous sentence didn’t make as much sense so I fixed it so the reader can understand it more clearly. Reinhearted (talk) 20:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion about the article should take place here, so I've copied this comment by Reinhearted from my talk page: How can something be “originating in Middle Eastern cuisines” this is not a region or state but rather a culture of food. The proper pronunciation would be “that originated in the Middle East”. As described in the History section, the basic techniques of cooking meat on a stick or skewer originated in Africa at least half a million years ago and predates the existence of modern humans. So it's not really accurate to say that it originated in the Middle East. On the other hand, the particular styles and recipes of the broader range of dishes we now call kebabs, beyond simple meat-on-a-stick, mainly arose in Persian and, later, Ottoman cuisines. I don't see that there is any grammatical problem in describing something as originating in a certain culture rather than a region or state. It's been this way for about three years, and nobody has complained. It also allows us to link to Middle Eastern cuisine, which is a more likely destination for readers of this article, who probably already know what the Middle East is. --IamNotU (talk) 22:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article states that “Kebab is a style of meat with their origins in Middle Eastern Cuisines” clearly not referring to the the basic meat style that originated in Africa. That claim is misleading and irrelevant to say the least Reinhearted (talk) 19:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reinhearted, can you indent your replies please? You've changed this again, but I still don't see a good justification for it. For the past several years, the lead sentence has been:
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]], with their origins in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
I don't really see how the proposed replacement improves it:
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] that originated in the [[Middle Eastern cusine|Middle East]].
I prefer the existing version, as I explained above. I don't agree that there's a grammar error in it. Kebabs only originated in the Middle East in the sense of the name and specific recipes coming from a certain cuisine, i.e. Persian/Arab/Turkish medieval cookery. See the History section. Linking directly to the desired cuisine article is clearer to the reader, avoiding the problem described in MOS:SUBMARINE. Do we need to go do dispute resolution about this? --IamNotU (talk) 21:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
which Reinhearted has also reverted to their version. It seems Reinhearted is concerned that we define the geographical origin of kebabs, as a region or state, in the first sentence. I prefer the stable version. Yours is pretty good, I would just say that at least some kebabs, e.g. doner kebab and shish kebab, have broken out from Middle Eastern cuisine and really have become global, so that's why I like "origins in Middle Eastern cuisine". I'm not so attached to "origins", could maybe be "stemming from" or something, if it's really necessary to change it. --IamNotU (talk) 23:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with the stable version, so let's return to that for now. Reinhearted, you are of course free to argue for your preferred version here on the Talk page and see if you can change the consensus.
diff A tenth-century Baghdadi cookbook mentions kebab, but that does not place its origin in Baghdad at that time. The dish had already been in existence for millennia, if the Akrotiri firedogs are credible evidence.
The page history shows my edit summary removed, as well as the previous editor's ID. I don't see anything in the logs about admin oversight. What's going on there? Just plain Bill (talk) 12:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, “Middle East” is not a country and it is commonly acknowledged that baghdad is where the kebab was made and was then spread to other areas of the middle east. Turkey is where doner kebab was made but not where regular kebab was made. IraqiEagle1001 (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If it is commonly acknowleged that Baghdad is the origin of kebab, then it should be possible to source it with reliable sources. True, "Middle East" is not a country, but it is a geographical area that is the closest we can pin down the origin of kebab, unless sources tell us otherwise. Now stop edit warring and start providing sources. --T*U (talk) 08:57, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@IraqiEagle1001: I have responded: 1) "not a country" is irrelevant, 2) "commonly acknowledged" needs a source. Invalid? How? Please explain (based on Wikipedia guidelines). Whatever it "used to say" is completely irrelevant. It now says "Place of origin:". --T*U (talk) 17:20, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It used to say “Country of origin”. Not in this article's infobox it didn't. The infobox template was changed thirteen years ago to show "Place of origin" explicitly to avoid difficulties with dishes whose origin is regional, not limited to a single country. That infobox appeared in this article ten years ago, showing "Place of origin".
“In the Sassanid Persian courts, gentlemen kept personal recipe collections, according to Perry, who is a food historian. None of these collections has made their way down to us, but the habit of recipe-writing had moved into Baghdad court culture by the 10th century.” and “Many of these cookbooks must have disappeared. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq’s 10th-century, Kitab al-Tabikh (Book of Dishes), is the earliest known title. It was translated to English in 2007 by Nawal Nasrallah. Al-Warraq was not a celebrity chef, but rather a scribe who compiled the collection for an unnamed patron, one who apparently wanted to know how the kings and caliphs ate.” and “ The 14th-century Egyptian cookbook, Treasure Trove of Benefits and Variety at the Table, still shows the influence of 10th-century Baghdad, but also has many local modifications.” IraqiEagle1001 (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Very fair point. Nothing in the quote suggests the origin of kebabs.
Britannica says a Kebabs are thought to have originated among transhumant peoples in Central Asia, whose meat-heavy diet was transformed somewhat in an urban context where vegetables were more readily available.
Many sources mention Turkey but there are suggestions of other locations.
Akkadian (now central Iraq) and Baghdad are barely in the running so I'd say they are out of the running here as well.
Kebabs almost certainly originated in lots of places because it's a practical option for cooking things.
I'd have gone with middle east but as the best source I can find is Britannica - let's go with Central Asia,
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It’s not Kebab in Farsi which is where the food originated from. It is Kabab (کباب).
Kabab in Farsi means “To fry”. Later has changed to Kebab in Turkish.
The word Kebab needs to be changed to Kabab throughout the whole page as I stated, Kebab is the Turkish variation of the dish.
My request has nothing to do with this page being English.
The proper name of the dish is Kabab.
By putting Kebab as the name of the food, you are entailing that it originates from Turkey which is incorrect and stealing from Persian culture and heritage.
Would it be okay for me to change the name of Sushi to Bibimbap on wikipedia because that is the Korean variation of the food? No because the food originates from Japan.
It does have to do with the page being in English because we go by what the subject is most commonly called in English regardless of where the dish originated. If "kebab" is the most common spelling (see WP:COMMONNAME, by the way) and you think that's "wrong" because you think writers of English should use the spelling of the place where something originated, then your argument is with the English-writing world and is out of place here. But whatever's most common in English, whether you consider it "right" or "wrong", is going to be what's used here.
If you can supply evidence that in relevant English-language sources the spelling "kabab" does predominate over the spelling "kebab", that will be grounds for initiating a move discussion.
By the way, if you look at either Turkish or Farsi Wikipedia, you'll see that the titles of the articles about the United States and Canada and the Australia are not "United States" or "Canada" or "Australia". That isn't stealing from American or Canadian or Australian culture and heritage, it's because the titles are what those countries are named in those languages.
I notice you using words like "Korean" and "variation" and "page" and "Japan" and "request" and "stealing" even though none of those is the spelling used in the languages from which those words ultimately came, or is even the same word. In fact, just about every word in English has its origin in other languages and didn't originally look as it does now in English. Why, out of all those words, does "kebab" deserve special attention? Largoplazo (talk) 23:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please change the word “Kebab” to “Kabab” throughout the whole page.
Kebab is old akaddian aramaic word "kabābu" "kbabā" transported to arabic persian and turkish homeros mentions roasted pieces of meat on a skewer in his work The Iliad and The Mahabharata written in ancient India mentions large pieces of roasted meat on a skewer 151.250.17.211 (talk) 17:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 16:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)