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Current time: 03:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC) Update frequency: once every 24 hours Last updated: 3 hours ago() |
This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies, and its processes can be discussed.
Special occasion idea: Olympics
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Discussion on Olympics
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Remembering that we did themed sets for the FIFA Women's World Cup last year, I thought of an idea for a themed set of hooks: the 2024 Summer Olympics take place from July 26 to August 11 this year (in a little over five weeks) and I think there will probably be a decent number of Olympics-related hooks; I at least plan to write a good number of them. I was thinking we might be able to do something like one Olympics hook per day for the duration of the event, similar to how we did for the FIFA World Cup. Thoughts? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Some related considerations:
All the Olympic-related hooks that I could spot are in the table below. Schwede66 03:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Just noting here that Zhang Ziyu has been nominated. Whilst she does play basketball and China is competing in that discipline at in Paris, she's not (yet?) a member of the China women's national basketball team. Hence, we could use this as another warmup hook. Schwede66 05:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC) Could somebody please review Draft:Adam Maraana? The review could double as a QPQ, as the intention of the IP editor is to have this run as part of the Olympics. Schwede66 06:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Red-tailed hawk, is there a good reason why you pulled the Solomon Islands at the 2020 Summer Olympics hook out of the special occasion holding area (SOHA) and put it into prep 4? Because if there isn't a good reason, I'd like to see this reverted. Schwede66 00:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Some of the Olympic hooks need a bit more attention from reviewers, or nominators are dragging the chain with QPQs. For example, Prep 1 is already filled but there's still one hook that awaits its QPQ. Prep 2 is filling up but a review for this nomination hasn't even been started yet. I'd be happy to do some shuffling but there's nothing really to shuffle this with; further down, the hooks are all timed for particular occasions. Shifting items back into the Olympics proper is also tricky as almost all days have two or three items already. I'd most appreciate if those who can stand reviewing sports articles can give this some attention. Schwede66 09:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Here's a summary of how many hooks we've got, and when they are scheduled to run (note that the table has been shifted to the section "Help needed"): As can be seen:
Therefore, we have to agree whether we would be happy with three Olympic-related hooks per set. Delaying Olympic-related hooks that are already approved is definitely not helping. Schwede66 22:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
SL93, Lorrane Oliveira was for Prep6, not Prep5. Schwede66 00:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
We currently have four hooks for 29 July / Prep6; this is the next prep set that will become available. That sounds too many, however, only one of those hooks is currently at SOHA. One hook, a swimmer starting for Israel, hasn't had the review started yet. There may well be a reluctance to "touch" anything Israel, so this might not make it. The two other hooks are both awaiting BeanieFan11 to provide a QPQ. Thus, at this point in time, we only have one viable hook from four candidates. When Prep6 becomes available, I'll thus bring one of the "foo at the YYYY Summer Olympics" hooks forward so that we've at least got two hooks to go. Schwede66 20:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
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Proposal
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The Paris Olympics will be kicking off on 26 July 2024 with an opening ceremony in the early evening. Event competitions start two days earlier on 24 July with association football and rugby sevens. The closing ceremony (article yet to be written!) is on 11 August. That's 19 days of Olympics and as suggested above, we could run Solomon Islands at the 2020 Summer Olympics as a warmup just before that period.
There'll be some special date requests coming in and to avoid filling up individual hook sets with too much sport, I suggest we co-ordinate what will run when to spread things out in a logical fashion. I suspect that we'll stay in a 24-hour cycle for the duration of the event but if that changes, we can accommodate that as well. Time zone–wise, Paris is currently at UTC+02:00 (Central European Summer Time or CEST), hence there are no mental gymnastics necessary as long as we stay in the 24-hour cycle. Comments welcome. Helpers are welcome and essential; I certainly don't want to do this all by myself as this was quite a bit of work some three years ago for the Tokyo Olympics. And with regards to my own special interests, I shall tell you that the Kiwi rowers are in good shape; I can hear the medals clinking already! Schwede66 01:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
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Help needed
[edit]Suggested date | Q / Prep | Hooks 18 Jul | Hooks 19 Jul | Hooks 21 Jul | Hooks 3 Aug | Hooks 4 Aug |
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21-Jul | Queue5 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
22-Jul | Queue6 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
23-Jul | Queue7 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
24-Jul | Queue1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
25-Jul | Queue2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
26-Jul | Queue3 | 2 | 2 | 3 | ||
27-Jul | Queue4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
28-Jul | Queue5 | 3 | 3 | 3 | ||
29-Jul | Queue6 | 2 | 4 | 3 | ||
30-Jul | Queue7 | 3 | 3 | 5 | ||
31-Jul | Queue1 | 3 | 3 | 2 | ||
1-Aug | Queue2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | ||
2-Aug | Queue3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||
3-Aug | Queue4 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 4 | |
4-Aug | Queue5 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 |
5-Aug | Queue6 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 |
6-Aug | Queue7 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 3 |
7-Aug | Prep1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 |
8-Aug | Prep2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 |
9-Aug | Prep3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
10-Aug | Prep4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 |
11-Aug | Prep5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
Extended content
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Just a heads up that I've got a week of little available time coming up:
After that, things should be back to normal. Hence, it might be a good idea if others take the lead. Kingsif, you were asking whether there's something where you could help – here's your chance. Last time, Joseph2302 did a lot of good work – would you be interested to step up? What needs doing? Here's a hopefully complete list:
If I think of anything else, I'll add that to the list. It's reasonably late in the process (the first competitions will start tomorrow) and all the structural issues are sorted. It just needs some low-level maintenance at this point. Schwede66 23:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Hadi Tiranvalipour (nom) is supposed to be in prep 1, which is the next prep to be moved to queue. Problem is that the review hasn't been started yet. Any takers? Schwede66 00:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC) Ada Korkhin (nom) is a rather late nomination. It's worth getting this one into the system because it comes with a stunner of a hook! Schwede66 11:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
@Schwede66: Probably too short notice, but might as well ask: would it be possible to feature Template:Did you know nominations/Jamal Valizadeh on August 5? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
I've just added Minna Stess to the table below for 11 August. Schwede66 10:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
And another late candidate for 7 August: Jesse Grupper (nom) Schwede66 09:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
I think this is the last nomination that I shall add here, and it's my own. Finn Butcher (nom). Could even be used as the lead hook, as we have a series of nice photos. Schwede66 01:55, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
As nobody has reviewed the Iman Mahdavi nomination, I shall take the SOHA box off. It can go into the normal review cycle. Schwede66 00:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
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Olympic hooks table
[edit]On the "Approved" page, there is now a heading Olympics: Special occasion holding area.
Article (nom) | Requested | Suggested date | Prep set | Notes (all times in CEST) | Views |
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2024 European Athletics Championships – Women's 400 metres hurdles (nom) | none | 21 July | Queue 5 | ![]() |
2,950 |
Breaking Through (2022 film) (nom) | none | 21 July | Queue5 | The film deals with real events around the 2002 Winter Olympics, hence it's an ideal warmup hook. | 3,579 |
Zali Steggall (nom) | none | 22 July | Queue 6 | 1998 Olympic skier | 5,727 |
Ri Jong-yol (nom) | none | 22 July | Queue6 | One of the warm-up hooks; can run on any date before the Olympics start | 14,746 |
Yang Jingru (speed skater) (nom) | none | 23 July | Queue 7 | One of the warm-up hooks; can run on any date before the Olympics start. | 5,972 |
René Heyde (nom) | none | 23 July | Queue7 | One of the warm-up hooks; can run on any date before the Olympics start. | 2,405 |
Toby Olubi and Can't Touch This (nom) | none | 24 July | Queue 1 | One of the warm-up hooks; can run on any date before the Olympics start (24 is in fact the first day of competitions but we haven't got anything for that day yet). This double-hook has already had its admin checks done (by Cwmhiraeth) | 3,542 4,101 |
American Samoa at the 2020 Summer Olympics (nom) | none | 24 July | Queue1 | One of the "foo at the YYYY Summer Olympics" hooks; can run on any day during the Olympics | 5,223 |
Twice a Man (film) (nom) | none | 25 July | Queue 2 | ... that Olympia Dukakis's first screen role was in the avant-garde film Twice a Man?That's got to be a brilliant Olympics hook. |
4,711 |
Angling at the 1900 Summer Olympics (nom) | none | 25 July | Queue2 | One of the Olympic warmup hooks. | 9,438 |
Camil Doua (nom) | none | 26 July | Queue 3 | Flagbearer – Doua is competing in the men's 100 metre freestyle and the heats will be on 30 July. Problem is that we have two hooks for that date already. As Doua is flagbearer for Mauritania, the opening ceremony date is a perfectly viable alternative. Agreed for this to be a standalone hook for its rather cool hook fact. | 11,595 |
Alison McGregor (nom) | none | 26 July | Queue3 | The hook mentions that she was an Olympic torch carrier, i.e. a great warmup hook for the opening day. | 2,766 |
Lê Đức Phát (nom) | 26 July | 26 July | Queue3 | Flagbearer – part of the mass hook. Otherwise, Lê is going to compete in men's singles badminton, with the preliminary round every day from 27 to 31 July inclusive. Any of those days would thus also work. | 3,385 |
Edda Hannesdóttir (nom) | 26 July | 26 July | Queue3 | Flagbearer – part of the mass hook. Otherwise, Hannesdóttir is set to compete in the women's triathlon on 31 July | 3,230 |
María Sara Grippoli (nom) | 26 July | 26 July | Queue3 | Flagbearer – part of the mass hook. Otherwise, Grippoli is set to compete in women's 49 kg taekwondo, with all competitions on 7 August. | 2,666 |
Viren Nettasinghe (nom) | 26 July | 26 July | Queue3 | Flagbearer – part of the mass hook. | 2,655 |
Chloë Farro (nom) | 26 July | 26 July | Queue3 | Flagbearer – part of the mass hook. | 3,464 |
Oyuntsetseg Yesügen (nom) | 26 July | 26 July | Queue3 | Flagbearer – part of the mass hook. Late addition to the set. The nomination page is already closed; if you'd like to review this, please use the nomination talk page to do so. | 130 |
Fathimath Dheema Ali (nom) | none | 27 July | Queue 4 | The women's table tennis singles prelim round starts on 27 July | 7,235 |
Evann Girault (nom) | none | 27 July | Queue4 | Girault is going to compete in men's sabre, and that competition is held on 27 July (from elimination to finals; all on one day) | 3,825 |
Lilia Cosman (nom) | 28 July | 28 July | Queue 5 | Cosman will compete in the qualification round on 28 July. | 11,042 |
Aminata Barrow (nom) | None | 28 July | Queue5 | Barrow will compete in women's 100 metre breaststroke, with heats on 28 July | 4,319 |
Lorrane Oliveira (nom) | 28 July | 28 July | Queue5 | ![]() |
10,444 |
Adam Maraana (nom) | 29 July | 29 July | Queue 6 | ![]() |
18,400 |
Victor Alvares de Oliveira (nom) | 29 July | 29 July | Queue6 | Submitted on 18 July hence this one might not make it in time. Alvares de Oliveira is going to compete in men's foil fencing, with all competitions to be held on 29 July. | 4,055 |
Solomon Islands at the 2020 Summer Olympics (nom) | none | One of the "foo at the YYYY Summer Olympics" hooks; can run on any day during the Olympics | 12,506 | ||
Alyssa Mendoza (nom) | none | 30 July | Queue 7 | Assuming that she is still featherweight, the women's 57 kg boxing competition begins on 30 July with the round of 32. | 8,941 |
Andy Barat (nom) | none | 30 July | Queue7 | Barat is going to compete in the men's slalom K-1, and that competition has its heats on 30 July. That's unfortunately the third article for this date. Before you promote to prep, please see the discussion above about combining this with the Alyssa Mendoza hook. | 5,982 |
Valentin Houinato (nom) | none | 30 July | Queue7 | Nominated to DYK late in the process. Houinato is set to compete in the men's 81 kg judo event, with all competitions held on 30 July | 5,618 |
Shachar Sagiv (nom) | none | 30 July | Queue7 | Men's triathlon is scheduled for 30 July starting at 8:00 | 2,221 |
Matthew Wright (triathlete) (nom) | none | 30 July | Queue7 | Nominated to DYK late in the process. Wright is set to compete in the men's triathlon, which is scheduled for 30 July starting at 8:00. Is there an opportunity to combine the two triathletes in this set into one hook if both nominations get reviewed in time? | 3,770 |
Dylan Travis (nom) | none | 31 July | Queue 1 | The first USA men's 3x3 game is on 30 July. Subsequent games are on 31 July, 1, 2, and 4 August if that date gets too crowded. | 9,788 |
2024 United States men's Olympic basketball team (nom) | 28 July | 31 July | Queen1 | The U.S. team plays in the preliminary round on 28 and 31 July and on 3 August. We already have too many hooks for 28 July, so any of the other two options will work better. | 11,252 |
Marcedes Walker (nom) | None | 1 August | Queue 2 | Walker is going to compete in the women's 3x3 basketball competition and they are playing a round robin round-robin tournament from 30 July to 3 August, playing every day. Hence, there's heaps of flexibility moving this hook around to suit. | 9,324 |
Warren Lawrence (nom) | none | 1 August | Queue2 | Nominated to DYK late in the process. Lawrence is set to compete in the men's 50 metre freestyle event, with heats and semifinals on 1 August. | 2,619 |
Suriname at the 1960 Summer Olympics (nom) | none | 1 August | Queue2 | One of the "foo at the YYYY Summer Olympics" hooks; can run on any day during the Olympics | 8,007 |
Emily Ausmus (nom) | none | 2 August | Queue 3 | Ausmus is competing in the women's water polo tournament in Group B, with preliminary round games held on 27, 29, and 31 July, and a game on 2 August. Any of those dates are suitable. | 7,627 |
Philippines at the 1924 Summer Olympics (nom) | none | 2 August | Queue3 | One of the "foo at the YYYY Summer Olympics" hooks; can run on any day during the Olympics. We do have an image but it's of rather poor quality. | 5,459 |
2024 World Athletics Relays – Mixed 4 × 400 metres relay (nom) | 2/3 August | 3 August | Queue 4 | The mixed 4 × 400 metres relay is scheduled for 2 and 3 August 2024.[1] | 4,961 |
Filomenaleonisa Iakopo (nom) | none | 3 August | Queue4 | Iakopo is scheduled to compete in the women's 100 metres, with the preliminary round scheduled to be held on 3 August. | 8,179 |
Apsara Sakbun (nom) | none | 3 August | Queue4 | Sakbun is going to compete in women's 50 metre freestyle swimming, with heats and semi-finals on 3 August. | 5,166 |
Mikaella Moshe (nom) | None | 3 August | Queue4 | Women's individual archery is already underway, so this can run anytime we want. That said, the finals are on 3 August. | 7,423 |
2022 European Athletics Championships – Women's 400 metres and 2022 European Athletics Championships – Women's 400 metres hurdles (nom) | none | 4 August | Queue 5 | ![]() |
809 |
Liechtenstein at the 1936 Summer Olympics (nom) | none | 4 August | Queue5 | One of the "foo at the YYYY Summer Olympics" hooks; can run on any day during the Olympics | 11,275 |
Kim Ye-ji (sport shooter) (nom) | none | 4 August | Queue5 | Has already competed; can run anytime | 39,422 |
Piper Kelly (nom) | None | 5 August | Queue 6 | Qualifications for women's speed climbing are on 5 Aug. | 7,202 |
Aniya Holder (nom) | 5 August | 5 August | Queue6 | Qualifications for women's speed climbing are on 5 Aug. | 4,329 |
Jamal Valizadeh (nom) | 5 August | 5 August | Queue6 | A late request. Valizadeh is set to competed in the men's Greco-Roman 60 kg competition, with proceedings kicking off on 5 August. | 10,928 |
Jenya Kazbekova (nom) | 6/8 August | 6 August | Queue 7 | Kazbekova is due to compete in women's combined sport climbing, with semifinals for the two competition elements (boulder and lead) split over two days: 6 & 8 August. Hence, this can run on either date. | 5,095 |
Zheng Haohao (nom) | none | 6 August | Queue7 | Zheng is due to compete in women's park skateboarding on 6 Aug. | 13,465 |
1964 Summer Olympics medal table (nom) | None | 6 August | Queue7 | Can run whenever. If Jamal Valizadeh gets signed off before Q6 goes live, we'll shift this backwards. | 4,806 |
Ruby Remati (nom) | None | 7 August | Queue 1 | The team artistic swimming event will be held on 5, 6, and 7 August. The hook could run on any of those days. | 8,049 |
Hadi Tiranvalipour (nom) | none | 7 August | Queue 1 | Tiranvalipour is set to competed in the men's 58 kg taekwondo on 7 August. | 6,545 |
Jesse Grupper (nom) | 7 August | 7 August | Queue 1 | Grupper is going to compete in the lead semifinal of the men's combined rock climbing. That date is not far away but if we can get this reviewed in a hurry, it'll fit into that date alright as we've only got other other nominations (on most days, we have three). | 7,069 |
Emmanuella Atora (nom) | 8 August | 8 August | Queue 2 | Atora is due to compete in women's 57 kg taekwondo (assuming that she's still in this weight class). The competition is to be held on 8 August. | 9,406 |
Sarah Levy (rugby union) (nom) | None | 8 August | Queue 2 | Can run whenever. | 4,845 |
Manizha Talash (nom) | none | 9 August | Queue 3 | Breaking or breakdancing is a new sport. Who would have known. The competition for females is on 9 August. | 11,032 |
Logan Edra (nom) | none | 9 August | Queue3 | Here's our second female breakdancer. Any chance of combining the two hooks? | 20,439 |
Sunny Choi (nom) | 9 August | 9 August | Queue3 | Well, that's our third female breakdancer. We really shouldn't have three individuals hooks for breakdancers on the same day. I've suggested a hook with this nomination and propose that we close the other two nominations and transfer the credits across. | 17,388 |
Gaku Akazawa (nom) | none | 10 August | Queue 4 | Akazawa is going to compete in the men's freestyle wrestling 65 kg, with the event scheduled to start on 10 August. | 7,387 |
Alasan Ann (nom) | none | 10 August | Queue4 | Ann is going to compete in the men's taekwondo +80 kg, with all events scheduled for 10 August. | 5,697 |
Kennedy Blades (nom) | none | 10 August | Queue4 | Blades is going to compete in the women's freestyle wrestling 76 kg, with the event scheduled to start on 10 August. | 32,679 |
Ada Korkhin (nom) | none | 11 August | Prep 5 | The women's 25 metre pistol competition is already underway and will finish on 3 August. Hence, this can run whenever. Currently scheduled for the closing ceremony date. | 6,593 |
Minna Stess (nom) | none | 11 August | Prep 5 | Stess is set to compete in the women's park skateboarding event on 6 August. There are three hooks in Queue7 already, which will be published on that day. One of those—1964 Summer Olympics medal table—could theoretically be shifted back, but I've done enough hook shuffling lately. If it gets signed off in time, I shall defer to another admin to make it happen on that day. The alternative day that I've picked here is the day of the closing ceremony; that involves a lot less effort to make this happen. | 5,849 |
Finn Butcher (nom) | 11 August | 11 August | Prep 5 | ![]() |
3,987 |
Olympics debrief
[edit]For some reason, Narutolovehinata5 closed the Olympics item above before I had even added the remaining 11 August views to the table. The one thing that I wanted to do is to have a debrief. Here's what went well – the table below shows all the target articles that received more than 10,000 views (and note that I haven't done any adjustment for base views as that's too hard during the Olympics). The absolute standout was the triple-hook featuring the breakdancers. My hunch was there would be quite a bit of interest in the topic, with this being a new sport. But it far exceeded my expectations, with a combined total of 48,859 views for the three articles, and each of them individually getting over the 10,000 mark.
Article and nomination | Published | Hook | Comments | Views |
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Kim Ye-ji (sport shooter) (nom) | 4 Aug 2024 | ... that Kim Ye-ji's performance in the 10 meter air pistol at the 2024 Summer Olympics led her to be dubbed the "coolest person on the planet"? | Stunning hook that ran after she competed; Kim had gone viral and any hook with her name in it would have produced high views. | 39,422 |
Kennedy Blades (nom) | 10 Aug 2024 | ... that female wrestler Kennedy Blades once won a state championship against boys? | Great hook that ran on the day she won silver. | 32,679 |
Logan Edra (nom) | 9 Aug 2024 | ... that while Sunny Choi and Logan Edra represent their country at the Olympics in breakdancing, Afghan breakdancer Manizha Talash competes as a member of the IOC Refugee Olympic Team? | Part of a triple hook; fabulous result for being part of a mass nomination. Total hook views are 48,859. | 20,439 |
Adam Maraana (nom) | 29 Jul 2024 | ![]() |
Lead hooks often do well. | 18,400 |
Sunny Choi (nom) | 9 Aug 2024 | ... that while Sunny Choi and Logan Edra represent their country at the Olympics in breakdancing, Afghan breakdancer Manizha Talash competes as a member of the IOC Refugee Olympic Team? | Part of a triple hook; fabulous result for being part of a mass nomination. | 17,388 |
Ri Jong-yol (nom) | 22 Jul 2024 | ... that North Korean child prodigy Ri Jong-yol defected to South Korea after winning silver at the 2016 International Mathematical Olympiad in Hong Kong? | One of the warmup hooks that did very well. | 14,746 |
Zheng Haohao (nom) | 6 Aug 2024 | ... that after qualifying for the 2024 Summer Olympics at the age of 11, skateboarder Zheng Haohao became the youngest Chinese sportsperson to participate in the Olympics? | Great hook that did well | 13,465 |
Solomon Islands at the 2020 Summer Olympics (nom) | 30 Jul 2024 | ... that a law was signed so that the Solomon Islands delegation could return home from the 2020 Summer Olympics? | Fabulous hook fact | 12,506 |
Camil Doua (nom) | 26 Jul 2024 | ... that Olympic swimmer Camil Doua represents a country in which "the only existing swimming pools are those in hotels"? | We excluded this hook from a mass nomination because it was a compelling fact – that was the correct decision. | 11,595 |
Liechtenstein at the 1936 Summer Olympics (nom) | 4 Aug 2024 | ... that for the 1936 Summer Olympics, Liechtenstein flipped their flag upside down? | Strong hook fact that did as well as I expected it to do. | 11,275 |
2024 United States men's Olympic basketball team (nom) | 31 Jul 2024 | ... that Cameroonian-born Joel Embiid opted to play for the 2024 U.S. Olympic basketball team instead of France in part because his son is American? | Anything mentioning this team's name is going to do well, I suppose. | 11,252 |
Lilia Cosman (nom) | 28 Jul 2024 | ... that at age 15, Lilia Cosman moved from the United States to Romania to compete for Romania's Olympic gymnastics team? | This hook did much better than I had expected. | 11,042 |
Manizha Talash (nom) | 9 Aug 2024 | ... that while Sunny Choi and Logan Edra represent their country at the Olympics in breakdancing, Afghan breakdancer Manizha Talash competes as a member of the IOC Refugee Olympic Team? | Part of a triple hook; fabulous result for being part of a mass nomination. Talash managed to get herself disqualified for displaying a political slogan during competition, which would no doubt have contributed to interest in her. | 11,032 |
Jamal Valizadeh (nom) | 5 Aug 2024 | ... that after Jamal Valizadeh was tortured in Iran, hid for six months, and escaped, he qualified to compete in the Olympics as a member of the Refugee Olympic Team? | Strong hook fact. | 10,928 |
Lorrane Oliveira (nom) | 28 Jul 2024 | ![]() |
That's the other lead hook that we had. | 10,444 |
We ran 70 articles as part of this exercise (there are 68 rows in the management table, with 2 rows having 2 hooks each). That was a lot of work to manage. I didn't get anywhere near as much help compared to the last Olympics. But when I went away for a week, it kept ticking over nicely. Thanks to those who stepped in.
Some contributors put forward a lot of those articles. BeanieFan11 easily stands out as the most prolific contributor – well done.
What didn't go well? I think there was too much "traffic" on this DYK talk page, probably annoying the crap out of anyone who has this page on their watchlist without being interested in sport. Maybe we should have set up a sub-page to manage this? I guess what's related is that some editors moaned at me for doing things that those who did contribute to the discussion had agreed to. It feels somewhat disheartening to put in an hour or two every day for many weeks, and in return to be moaned at quite a bit by those who had not kept up with what had been agreed.
One such example was RoySmith not wanting to run the triple hook that ended up being the absolute star performer. He suggested dropping two of the three articles; those two articles received nearly 38,000 views between them.
Things that we could do better next time may include:
- start much earlier and agree on a way to do this; draft a timeline for what needs to be done by when
- consider a separate management page that's not hosted on WT:DYK
- those editors with a negative disposition are most welcome to contribute to the discussion on how to do the exercise next time, but I'm absolutely not interested in being at the receiving end of negativity about things that the community has agreed to; maybe those editors could exercise some self-restraint in future
- write up what's been agreed to and that's what could be shared at WT:DYK
- encourage the wider Wiki community to write new articles and nominate them in the six weeks prior to the Olympics starting; things were definitely too "last minute" a lot of the time
- we could, for example, consider a watchlist notice
- in turn, be more hard-nosed about late nominations
- I'd like to see the Olympics hooks marked as such, e.g. by adding the Olympic rings to each hook; that means that those with an interest in the Olympics will find it much easier to find the topic even if it doesn't include the word "Olympics"
If others have different or additional ideas, now is the time to write this down. And many thanks to AirshipJungleman29, who left a Barnstar on my talk page for this Olympics initiative. Schwede66 03:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments
[edit]I was involved in the 2023 Christmas set, which was more chaotic than this. I appreciated the organisation for the Olympics, and would like this to be a model for other special occasions. Some observations in response to the above:
- Yes, starting early is ideal, and it takes someone with the initiative to do so. If anyone is interested in organising a special occasion prep set, please start at least 6 weeks ahead of time.
- I was not bothered by the conversation and watchlist notices on WT:DYK. If it is moved to another page, many editors will miss the conversation. Maybe keep the discussion on WT:DYK, but move the organising table to an organising page?
- There are always negative editors whenever anything is done on Wikipedia, unfortunately, and the lead organiser gets the brunt of it.
- It would be awesome if articles were written ahead of time, but some people on Wikipedia (including me) are fantastic procrastinators and will do things last minute no matter what. In the 2023 Christmas set, I looked for articles at WP:GAN and reviewed them so that they could be included in the set.
- Watchlist notice would be awesome, but I would combine it with a wider initiative like Wiki Loves Sports. A notification for DYK only might be received negatively.
- Adding a symbol after the hooks would be cool. I would also like it if, when there was a special occasions prep set, that a signifier or sentence be added to the top of the DYK template.
Are there any plans to continue this for the 2024 Summer Paralympics? Z1720 (talk) 03:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support throughout this campaign, @Z1720. You say:
move the organising table to an organising page
. That can be done if if we transclude the table back onto this page, it significantly cuts down on the number of edits appearing in watchlists. Good way of doing it. As for the Paralympics, I'll give that a miss. Schwede66 05:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)- I do just want to go on record as saying that Kim Ye-ji, my contribution, was written after she went viral, so I physically could not have filled out her article to 1500 characters much earlier.--Launchballer 06:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- My suggestion is more of a general one: I agree that if we are to do themed sets and projects like this, they have to be done well in advance, and more importantly need consensus. We don't want a repeat of that St. James set we had a while back which ended up causing more trouble than it was worth, especially when it lacked consensus. For projects like this, my suggestion would be discussing them at least two months ahead of time (for multi-day projects), or a month ahead of time (for sets), and ideally earlier. This is to ensure that editors are onboard with such sets in the first place, and only when consensus is reached, or at least appears to be heading in that direction, can work properly begin. The last thing we need is projects that people just end up doing without DYK regulars actually signing off on it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think any specific time limits are needed. The only thing that is certainly needed is consensus at this page, especially where some aspect of the themed set/project may end up violating WP:DYKCRIT (most probably as in this case, the prohibition against more than two hooks on the same subject). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Special Occasion review request for Siege of Perth
[edit]Unsure how best to make this request, but I had raised Template:Did you know nominations/Siege of Perth (1339) some time ago and thought it might be nice to run on 17 August as the anniversary of the end of the siege. Presuming there is no issue with this, I had wanted to highlight it here to request a review, allowing time to deal with any issues and avoid the nomination being overlooked. CSJJ104 (talk) 20:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- You were within the six week window so as long as the review passes you should be good to go. NightWolf1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 20:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for confirming, but my concern was more related to the fact that it has yet to receive a review, and we are getting close to the date. CSJJ104 (talk) 00:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
DYK for Aid climbing
[edit]I was away for a few weeks and had Aid climbing in the DYK queue, but never got a notice on my talk page that it appeared on the mainpage, and there is no DYK notice on the talk page of the article.
However, there didn't seem to be issues on Template:Did you know nominations/Aid climbing? My question is did the DYK appear on the main page, or was it pulled? thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- It ran. See [2].--Launchballer 10:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for that! Aszx5000 (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- It seems like this was a fault of the PSHAW script (FYI theleekycauldron), where it converted a nominator's existing credit into another article (there were two articles by the same nominator). Sdrqaz (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Discussion of three DYKs at WP:ERRORS which scrolled off without resolution. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- ... that residents reported the first cycling club in Washington, D.C. (uniform pictured), to the police over concerns that bicycles posed a danger to pedestrians?
The article does not say or claim that this was "the first cycling club in Washington", just that it was "early".
Also, the source doesn't seem to mention pedestrians specifically – just of the "dangerous potential for accidents". Perhaps a concern was the risk of collisions with horses and/or people and property in general?
Note that the hook wasn't checked in the nomination even though it included a first. It was just waved through as AGF.
Andrew🐉(talk) 06:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added the "first" claim to the article, citing the same source. Pinging Generalissima and BeanieFan11 to consider the other issues. Beanie, we strongly suggest additional scrutiny for "first" hooks. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have to take some of the blame here, since I promoted the queue. It's especially embarrassing since ranting about "first" hooks is one of the top ways I make myself annoying at WT:DYK. The unfortunate truth is that when I'm processing queues, I don't have time to read every article in full. I generally just read the hook and then search for keywords in the text to verify the facts. Looking back at the article, I suspect I found "the first such club in the country" and didn't notice this was immediately preceded by "Boston Bicycle Club".
- I know this has been said before, but Andrew, you have a keen eye for detail and critical reading. These are valuable skills and in great demand at DYK, so thank you for the much-needed quality control. But it would be even more useful if it was done on the #Next DYK and #Next-but-one DYK sections, so we could catch these problems before they hit the main page. RoySmith (talk) 15:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Different point: the comma after the "(uniform pictured)" should instead come before. So, " ... Washington, D.C., (uniform pictured) to the police". JMCHutchinson (talk) 13:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- ... that Olympic taekwondo practitioner Emmanuella Atora described her career as "I hit people for a living"?
According to the source, what she actually said was "Je tape les gens pour vivre". This was not translated by the source and it's not clear what she meant by it as Taekwondo is not usually a professional sport while she appears to have a career as an aspiring professional model. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, the line was a meme already, having been used by MMA fighter Francis Ngannou a year earlier [3]. Black Kite (talk) 07:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well spotted. Francis Ngannou is a successful professional fighter and so the boast works better for him. There's merchandise too... Andrew🐉(talk) 08:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, the line was a meme already, having been used by MMA fighter Francis Ngannou a year earlier [3]. Black Kite (talk) 07:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
In the fourth hook, there doesn't seem to be any reason for "The" in "The Proms" to be capitalized. Primergrey (talk) 19:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Primergrey Thanks for the report. The article is inconsistent on "the Proms" vs "The Proms"; it mostly uses "the", but there's enough instances of "The" to make me unsure what's the right thing to do here. I'll leave it the way it is now and ask about it on Talk:BBC Proms. You may want to follow that conversation. RoySmith (talk) 21:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Andrew Davidson, I don't know if you saw Roy's comment above about checking the "Next DYK" and "Next-but-one DYK" slots on WP:ERRORS before they go live, but I would echo it. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- While their work is great, I do remember their comment of "If DYK published regular corrections then the shame might be a useful check and balance, helping to deter sloppy work." from July 1. Not doing the checks earlier and posting this section here might just be a way to shame contributors. SL93 (talk) 22:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Joeyquism, Morgan695, and AirshipJungleman29:
I changed the hook from "tickling" to "tickled" (and the appropriate grammar) because 1) that is how it is quoted in the source and the article (with the quote marks) and 2) the woman used forced perspective to make it look like she was tickling the statue, which necessitates the quote marks. Please ping if there are questions, concerns, or if different wording would be better. Z1720 (talk) 03:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, @Z1720; it looks mostly good. I do feel that "after she..." would work better than "when she" here; let me know what you think. joeyquism (talk) 03:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29, Gobonobo, and Lajmmoore: WP:CLOP vs https://poozeum.com/t-rex-poop (earwig). Also, WP:RSNP says "Editors have expressed concern that post-2008 records include paid coverage" for Guinness World Records. And the photo credit says " Photo courtesy of the Poozeum" and "own work", both of which I doubt. RoySmith (talk) 10:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- PS, I've nominated the image for deletion on Commons RoySmith (talk) 11:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- As noted at the image's deletion discussion, this provenance of the photo was already addressed at User talk:YetiStuff#Couple of things. My sense is that the uploader is not lying about being the owner of the coprolite images. I'm not seeing any problem with the GWR reference as it is not being used to establish notability, but the article would suffer little if it had to be removed. The one instance of close paraphrasing I saw has been addressed, but if there is anything else, please ping me. gobonobo + c 13:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29, Schwede66, and Z1720: I'm going to go out on a limb and say WTF? As noted in the nomination template, the nominator is indef blocked for copyright violation. The nom was failed, and that was overridden by an IP. Is this really what we want to be showcasing on the main page? It's also another "first" hook, and considered the earliest deep-sea shipwreck to be discovered
in the article got turned into the wikivoice statement is the earliest deep-sea shipwreck
. In the hook. My recommendation is this be pulled. RoySmith (talk) 11:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am familiar with the original nominator, have rejected several of their nominations for WP:NONENGPLAG, and have recommended against unblocking them on their userpage. I have checked this article over, and I was unable to find similar violations. The article itself meets the reasoning at WP:DYKAIM, there is no meaningful difference between the hook and the relevant cited sentences in the article, and the hook is in fact relatively conservative—it has been suggested to be the oldest complete shipwreck ever found, deep-water or not (only two other Bronze Age shipwrecks with cargo have been found in the Mediterranean). I would advise against pulling. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- One of the things which makes it difficult for me to evaluate this is that most of the sources are in Hebrew. That's perfectly fine in general, and we often WP:AGF on foreign-language sources, but in this case we're dealing with an author who has a history of copyright issues, so AGF becomes more difficult. I'd really want this text to be checked over by somebody with a native reading knowledge of Hebrew. If that's you, great, I'll be happy to go with your evaluation. If not, then I think we need to look for one. RoySmith (talk) 12:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given that this is already on Queue we'd really want to get it right this time, so regardless if AJ29's check is sufficient it should probably be pulled temporarily until we're absolutely sure it checks. Since you're a sysop, maybe you can do the honors? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've swapped it out to Prep 6 which at least will give us a few days to look at it. RoySmith (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- We should engage with the IP editor. I’m pretty certain that they can read Hebrew. I’ll ask them. Schwede66 15:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've swapped it out to Prep 6 which at least will give us a few days to look at it. RoySmith (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- WP:NONENGPLAG refers to direct or superficially modified translations of sources in other languages—for this, Google Translate is sufficient. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, if you trust a copyright check based on a machine translation for an article written by somebody who is indeffed for copyvios, go for it. It's not something I want to put my signature on. RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- They have been indeffed for copyvios because of copyright checks based on machine translations. If you feel that machine translations are not accurate enough to check copyrights, you should accept their unblock request immediately and apologise for a block based on insufficient reasoning. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:26, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, if you trust a copyright check based on a machine translation for an article written by somebody who is indeffed for copyvios, go for it. It's not something I want to put my signature on. RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given that this is already on Queue we'd really want to get it right this time, so regardless if AJ29's check is sufficient it should probably be pulled temporarily until we're absolutely sure it checks. Since you're a sysop, maybe you can do the honors? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- One of the things which makes it difficult for me to evaluate this is that most of the sources are in Hebrew. That's perfectly fine in general, and we often WP:AGF on foreign-language sources, but in this case we're dealing with an author who has a history of copyright issues, so AGF becomes more difficult. I'd really want this text to be checked over by somebody with a native reading knowledge of Hebrew. If that's you, great, I'll be happy to go with your evaluation. If not, then I think we need to look for one. RoySmith (talk) 12:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at this, I wondered why it was called "Orca Shipwreck" which the article didn't explain. Most English language sources such as the BBC, Scientific American and NYT don't use this name. I've amended the title so that it is now Canaanite shipwreck which also uses the correct sentence case. If the hook is run, then it should be adjusted accordingly but I'm not sure where the hook is in the pipeline now. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's an argument to be made, given the ballaches caused by the blocks of certain former DYK regulars, that nominators with blocks of more than two weeks should automatically forfeit their nominations. Issues could conceivably be found at any point and there's no point going through the motions if the nominators physically can't fix them.--Launchballer 10:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Island
[edit]@ForksForks, Silver seren, and AirshipJungleman29:
- ... that animals can colonize islands by riding tropical cyclones?
I could not find in the article where this was stated. The source used in the DYK nom was only used once in the article as an inline citation, to support the statement: "One case study showed that in 1995, fifteen iguanas survived a 300 km journey to Anguilla in the Caribbean, an island which no iguana had lived on previously. They survived floating on a mass of uprooted trees from a storm."
The hook implies that the animals used the storm to travel, but the sentence in the article says the animals travelled on trees uprooted by a storm. Does the text in the article need to change, or should a different ALT hook be used? Z1720 (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like I grabbed the wrong source. See this Nat Geo article in the source [4] (Paywalled, sorry)
- per the source’s lead image caption: “Hurricane Isaias approaches Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, on August 3, 2020. The storm's floodwaters spread more than a hundred invasive species, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.”
- Though it looks like the source does not directly imply that it is the wind transporting animals, I read that in a source I don’t have available on my phone right now I believe — propose adding “the floodwaters produced by” before “tropical cyclones” if you desire to be specific.
- I am also OK with switching to the original proposed hook about species extinction risk. Up to you. ForksForks (talk) 00:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reading this back, I actually think I’d rather we just run the original hook about extinction and I’ll work on resolving this issue in the article when I’m back on stable internet. ForksForks (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- try this link Rjjiii (talk) 02:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I felt that riding the storm and riding the ocean that produces and sustains the storm are pretty much the same thing, but if that has to be specifically said (i.e. "riding the waves of tropical cyclones?") would that work? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, tropical cyclones don't have waves, waves are just an effect they cause in water. Animals can colonize islands through floats on normal currents, the cyclone addition is purely DYK hook factor. CMD (talk) 11:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- While this hook is interesting, it is not supported by the sources as written. I propose the following:
- ALT ... that rising water levels from tropical cyclones have allowed animals to colonise islands.
- Or something similar. Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 02:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Works for me, or, as ForksForks said, the original ALT0. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK with me, feel free to use your discretion. Though colonize vs colonise is an ENGVAR question and the article is in American english. ForksForks (talk) 15:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I switched the hook with ALT0, as it is more succinct and it is less likely to get hauled to ERRORS, imo. Z1720 (talk) 16:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help with this issue! I will do better in the future. ForksForks (talk) 17:45, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- You spoke too soon as ALT0 is now at WP:ERRORS, following other discussion below. I reckon that ALT2 is the safest bet: "... that Polynesian navigators discovered new islands without the use of navigational instruments?". Andrew🐉(talk) 07:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I switched the hook with ALT0, as it is more succinct and it is less likely to get hauled to ERRORS, imo. Z1720 (talk) 16:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- While this hook is interesting, it is not supported by the sources as written. I propose the following:
- No, tropical cyclones don't have waves, waves are just an effect they cause in water. Animals can colonize islands through floats on normal currents, the cyclone addition is purely DYK hook factor. CMD (talk) 11:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@Generalissima, Epicgenius, and AirshipJungleman29:
I have added a cn tag to the article: this will need to be resolved before it goes on the main page. Z1720 (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oops - this has now been fixed. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@Hey man im josh, Kimikel, and Dumelow: Hook fact needs an end-of-sentence citation. RoySmith (talk) 12:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@Hey man im josh, Di (they-them), and Bsoyka: I'm not sure we can say "are the first"; that asserts a fact in wikivoice; the article only says "The Milano Cortina 2026 Organizing Committee described the pair as ..." RoySmith (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's a good point, I support that change and think it makes sense. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, I support the change. Di (they-them) (talk) 14:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I also support that, thanks for the catch. Bsoyka (t • c • g) 12:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29, Kevmin, and Awkwafaba: The hook says "are lost at the Smithsonian", which implies that they got to the Smithsonian and then the museum lost them. The article only says "Pearson sent almost all of the specimens collected to the Smithsonian, but the fossils were never accessioned into the collections". For all we know, they got lost in transit and never made it to the museum. RoySmith (talk) 12:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good spot, should it be "lost on their way to the Smithsonian"? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- But that's not correct either. I suggested that being lost in transit was one possible explanation. It's certainly possible they did indeed get delivered and got lost inside the museum. From the information we have, there's no way to know which. RoySmith (talk) 15:03, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @RoySmith and AirshipJungleman29: They were lost after arriving at the Smithsonian, Being examined by the head of the Smithsonians paleoichthyology department David Dunkle and Dunkle replying to Pearson with a list of tentative identifications as to what the fish genera were in the mid 1960's. Within 10 years of that happening, When Mark Wilson tried to find them for re-examination, they were unlocatable, as they had not been accessioned and so placement in the vast collections was not determinable. Given that Pearson has stated he sent the specimens for identification, and Dunkle was able to respond with identifications, that Wilson was able to report on later, establishes clearly that the fossils were last know to be AT the Smithsonian. I have added Pearson (1967) to Libotonius, with Pearson specifically detailing the correspondence with Dunkle. Pearson, R.C. (1967). Geologic map of the Bodie Mountain quadrangle, Ferry and Okanogan counties, Washington (Geologic Quadrangle). Report. United States Geological Survey. doi:10.3133/gq636. --Kevmin § 16:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Kevmin OK, I see the report at https://pubs.usgs.gov/gq/0636/report.pdf, but all it says about Dunkle is
Fossil fish from the same beds as the plants have been identified by D. H. Dunkle (written communs.,1962, 1965) as Amyzon, Trychophanes, Erismatopterus, and a salmon.
Am I looking in the wrong place? If so, could you help me find the section that talks about this correspondence? RoySmith (talk) 16:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)- That is the correspondence, the "Erismatopterus" that Dunkle idnetified from the sent fossils are the fossils Mark Wilson in 1979 stated as probably being Libotonius and not Erismatopterus (a related genus from Wyoming fossils). Pearson and wilson state the fossils were sent to the Smithsonian, and Dunkle looked at something to make the identifications he wrote back to Pearson with.--Kevmin § 18:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- It took a bit of digging, but I found Wilson 1978 in ResearchGate. Based on that, I'm satisfied the hook is a defensible statement. RoySmith (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That is the correspondence, the "Erismatopterus" that Dunkle idnetified from the sent fossils are the fossils Mark Wilson in 1979 stated as probably being Libotonius and not Erismatopterus (a related genus from Wyoming fossils). Pearson and wilson state the fossils were sent to the Smithsonian, and Dunkle looked at something to make the identifications he wrote back to Pearson with.--Kevmin § 18:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Kevmin OK, I see the report at https://pubs.usgs.gov/gq/0636/report.pdf, but all it says about Dunkle is
- @RoySmith and AirshipJungleman29: They were lost after arriving at the Smithsonian, Being examined by the head of the Smithsonians paleoichthyology department David Dunkle and Dunkle replying to Pearson with a list of tentative identifications as to what the fish genera were in the mid 1960's. Within 10 years of that happening, When Mark Wilson tried to find them for re-examination, they were unlocatable, as they had not been accessioned and so placement in the vast collections was not determinable. Given that Pearson has stated he sent the specimens for identification, and Dunkle was able to respond with identifications, that Wilson was able to report on later, establishes clearly that the fossils were last know to be AT the Smithsonian. I have added Pearson (1967) to Libotonius, with Pearson specifically detailing the correspondence with Dunkle. Pearson, R.C. (1967). Geologic map of the Bodie Mountain quadrangle, Ferry and Okanogan counties, Washington (Geologic Quadrangle). Report. United States Geological Survey. doi:10.3133/gq636. --Kevmin § 16:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- But that's not correct either. I suggested that being lost in transit was one possible explanation. It's certainly possible they did indeed get delivered and got lost inside the museum. From the information we have, there's no way to know which. RoySmith (talk) 15:03, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29, Launchballer, and Arconning: The quote in the article is "three generations of Detroit artists", not "three generations of Detroit" as rendered in the hook. RoySmith (talk) 12:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fine with the change, however the phrase "generations of Detroit" actually appears twice, once under "3 generations of Detroit".--Launchballer 12:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, OK. I've changed the hook to use "3" so it matches the first quote. RoySmith (talk) 13:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29, Gerda Arendt, and Vigilantcosmicpenguin: The article and the quote from the source in the nom both say "was burned". This got turned into "burned at the stake" in the hook. If the source doesn't say "at the stake", we shouldn't either. RoySmith (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I didn't know any other type of burning was done for heretics. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the source [5] says he was burnt at the stake ("Scheiterhaufen"), but I don't know enough German to confirm the exact meaning, so I'll leave it to the nominators to determine how to phrase it in the article. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 14:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt can you help with a translation? RoySmith (talk) 17:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- My translator gives me two translations for Scheiterhaufen: pyre and stake. I read both these words but wasn't exactly sure what they mean. It seems close enough to me to use stake in article and hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Scheiterhaufen seems to mean pile of wood, which is the same as pyre. A stake is a wooden post, so being burned on a pyre does not necessarily mean burned at the stake. TSventon (talk) 20:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- My translator gives me two translations for Scheiterhaufen: pyre and stake. I read both these words but wasn't exactly sure what they mean. It seems close enough to me to use stake in article and hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt can you help with a translation? RoySmith (talk) 17:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
This is about figuring out what went wrong so we can improve the process, not to place blame on anybody in particular. This was brought up on WP:ERRORS. Looking at the history, I see many small things that went wrong, all of which added up to us publishing something we shouldn't have.
First, as mentioned on WP:ERRORS, the original hook was incorrect, possibly because this was a third-party nomination so the nom didn't know the subject. Somewhere along the way, the article author noticed the problem but posted their correction on the article talk page instead of on the nomination page, so it probably wasn't seen by the reviewer and/or promoter. When the hook got corrected, instead of striking out the original and adding an ALT, the original was changed in-place, making it less likely the promoter would be aware of the problem. When the new hook was reviewed, the reviewer gave it a lukewarm approval, but it ended up getting approved anyway. And lastly, we've got people at WP:ERORRS who seem to be more interested in waiting for things to get published so than can embarrass us in public than in being part of the process and helping to spot problems before they go live.
I think the take-home should be that everybody needs to just slow down and be more careful. It's more important to get it right than to get it done. RoySmith (talk) 14:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- One process/software issue here is that editing the "Did you know nomination" section on the talk page does not edit the Did you know nomination, unlike most other transcluded sections elsewhere on the 'pedia. We could perhaps at least add a hidden comment to the section when the DYK nom is transcluded to the talk page, to warn people that their comments are unlikely to be seen.
- DYK discussions should really be able to use the "reply" button like all other discussions on Wikipedia, but that doesn't work because they (a) happen in the wrong namespace and (b) inside an overly complicated and clever template. —Kusma (talk) 14:24, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- A recent issue of Tech News had a bit about being able to configure VE to run in all namespaces. It wasn't clear if that also applied to Discussion Tools (which I think is what the reply button is connected to). But, yeah, not having a working reply button is a real pain. RoySmith (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Shortened hook for Nature-positive
[edit]I've just promoted Template:Did you know nominations/Nature-positive to T:DYK/P1 with a shorter hook and wanted to check this was within the purview of the promoter? If needed the original hook can be reinstated.
@Manxshearwater @John Cummings CSJJ104 (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- +1 to the shortened version. RoySmith (talk) 23:28, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- PS, yes, it's very much within the purview of a promoter. It's recommended that you ping the nominator and other people who participated in the discussion, which you have done, so all is good. RoySmith (talk) 23:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, the original hook was
- ... that over 90 world leaders have commited to the Leaders' Pledge for Nature; to nature-positive policies, reversing biodiversity loss and full nature recovery by 2050?
- The new hook is
- ... that over 90 world leaders have committed to nature-positive policies?
- CSJJ104 (talk) 23:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Happy with this, thank you! Manxshearwater (talk) 11:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Are the following hooks "definite facts"?
[edit]User:Andrew Davidson has noted down many hooks at WP:ERRORS which he feels does not meet the requirement for "a definite fact" in WP:DYKHOOK. These include:
- ... that the Poozeum holds fossilized dinosaur feces (pictured) which may have come from a T. rex?
- ... that researchers estimated that training the model for ChatGPT used the equivalent energy footprint of "driving 123 gasoline-powered passenger vehicles for a year"?
- ... that Ghana and Ivory Coast have been accused of setting up a cocoa cartel?
- ... that some estimate that maintenance of existing software costs up to nine times as much as creating it in the first place?
- ... that Jenny Hurn (pictured) in Lincolnshire, England, is said to be haunted by a boggart that crosses the River Trent in a dish propelled by oars the size of teaspoons?
Andrew's argument is that if the hook says people estimate/accuse/theorise, it cannot be a definite fact. I argue that the definite fact is that people have estimated/accused/theorised, not what they are estimating/accusing/theorising. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Seems a philosophical difference over what a "fact" is, which we can't solve but we could have a consensus one way or the other. The existence of estimates/accusations/theories is a potential fact. While they do feel qualitatively weaker in that anyone can say anything, I don't think they should be ineligible by default. Perhaps they should face a higher level of scrutiny. For example, that cocoa cartel one feels very much not NPOV. CMD (talk) 14:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, Andrew's contention for that latter hook was that it was a cartel and that the hook should state "... that Ghana and Ivory Coast have set up a cocoa cartel?" ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:51, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- They are right that stating a bland fact reads as less POV than copying an accusation. A more WP:IMPARTIAL feel. CMD (talk) 15:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me, that seems somewhat contradictory. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- X accuses Y is a more tabloidy WP:TONE than plainer talk, it doesn't create confidence in the text. Similar perhaps to the counterintuitive situation where having too many citations suggests the text might be questionable. CMD (talk) 15:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- These issues are covered to some extent in the various sections of Words to watch whose nutshell summary concludes "Use clear, direct language. Let facts alone do the talking." From what I've seen lately, nominations often start by stating something plainly in Wikipedia's voice. The review process then weakens the hook by adding qualifications or weasel words. The hook then comes across as uncertain and so not a definite fact. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- X accuses Y is a more tabloidy WP:TONE than plainer talk, it doesn't create confidence in the text. Similar perhaps to the counterintuitive situation where having too many citations suggests the text might be questionable. CMD (talk) 15:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me, that seems somewhat contradictory. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- They are right that stating a bland fact reads as less POV than copying an accusation. A more WP:IMPARTIAL feel. CMD (talk) 15:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, Andrew's contention for that latter hook was that it was a cartel and that the hook should state "... that Ghana and Ivory Coast have set up a cocoa cartel?" ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:51, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure of the origin of the "definite fact" rule but it has been around for a long time. FYI, here's the earliest case I found when searching the archives: Peyton Short. There wasn't a clear resolution in that case. Notice that someone says that "In the future, the best place to address this is Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors". That's not a good answer though as discussions don't last long there and so issues are often left unresolved. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- no, yes (but the estimate itself is shaky), yes (but the accusation was the consensus of RSes so it probably should've been stated in wikivoice), yes (but the estimate was slightly reported), and yes (but boggarts aren't real anyway), respectively. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Have to agree with Airship, we're not saying Poozeum has T. rex faeces, we're not saying that ChatGPT uses that much energy, etc., the hooks are saying that these things have been claimed, which is fact. Now, if there was an article where there were two contrasting and equally-DUE claims about something, and a proposed hook only mentioned one of them, even if saying "X has said..." that could present neutrality issues. But AFAIK, that doesn't apply to these. Kingsif (talk) 23:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree as well, along with that the H. Wortman Pumping Station stated below is fine as well. Andrew said, "It's puzzling to me that others have difficulty in spotting such issues which leap out to me." Maybe because some of what he "finds" is bs, considering such complaints often go stagnant at ERRORS. Yes, the operating mode of the pumping station was different before, but that was decades ago, and it is now a municipal monument. Climate change can do a lot of things over the years, and are we really going to say that every weather-related hook can't be used because the climate could always change it? There is no compromising with Andrew. For the extinction hook below, we could fix that by saying it's estimated which is still a fact, but he would whine that it isn't a definite fact because it is estimated. SL93 (talk) 01:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- (1) "that the Poozeum holds fossilized dinosaur feces" is a definite fact. (2–4) I could go either way. I do think such hooks at the least should face higher scrutiny for interestingness, since nothing in hook 3 indicates that the accusation is taken seriously or made by people in a position to know. So why should we care? (5) I think this one fails WP:DYKFICTION. Although folklore is not inherently fictional, I think this is too close to fiction. I find it interesting that my analysis is a mirror image of Theleekycauldron's. Perhaps we need to reword the guideline, since nobody knows what it means.
- In the past, I objected to the hook "... that Halley's Comet is a living creature in several works of fiction?" on DYKFICTION grounds, but nobody agreed with me. (See the archives.) I also proposed the hook "... that the reign of Ye will be one of perjury, slavery, pestilence and death, according to the Ethiopic Apocalypse of Ezra?", which I was prepared to defend against DYKFICTION accusations but never had to because nobody raised the issue. Srnec (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
More examples
[edit]I just looked through today's DYKs to see which of them were definite facts and found another one which isn't. It's
... that the H. Wortman Pumping Station has four pumps, but is only used in exceptional circumstances?
Looking at the article, it seems that the pumping station was built to drain an area of low-lying land and that, having done so, it was put onto a standby basis. The way the article puts it is "As of 2023, the station is only operated in exceptional circumstances, such as heavy rainfall." Now the full requirement of WP:DYKHOOK is "a definite fact that is unlikely to change". As the operating mode of the station has already changed once and climate change might make it change again, this doesn't seem a definite fact; it's just the recent situation and contingent on the water level and amount of rain.
It's puzzling to me that others have difficulty in spotting such issues which leap out to me. So, I just looked at tomorrow's set. This hook immediately stood out:
... that islands are home to 50 percent of land species at risk of extinction?
This 50% figure seemed suspiciously precise and tracing it back soon showed a drift:
- the article: "It has been estimated that almost 50% of land species threatened by extinction live on islands."
- the article's source: "Islands also have higher densities of critically endangered species, hosting just under half of all species currently considered to be at risk of extinction"
- the source's source: "We found that 1189 highly threatened vertebrate species (319 amphibians, 282 reptiles, 296 birds, and 292 mammals) breed on 1288 islands. These taxa represent only 5% of Earth's terrestrial vertebrates and 41% of all highly threatened terrestrial vertebrates"
So, the fact has gone from 41% of highly-threatened vertebrates to 50% of all land species at risk. This is not a definite fact; it's a rough and variable estimate which doesn't allow for the millions of invertebrate and plant species. See also Chinese whispers.
Andrew🐉(talk) 22:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think "that the H. Wortman Pumping Station has four pumps" is a definite fact. DYKHOOK says that the hook must include a definite fact, not that it cannot include anything else. The problem with the islands hook is real, but has nothing to do with the fact rule. It's just inaccurate as written. Srnec (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Older nominations needing DYK reviewers
[edit]The previous list was archived about an hour ago, so I've created a new list of 36 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through July 24. We have a total of 281 nominations, of which 125 have been approved, a gap of 156 nominations that has decreased by 2 over the past 7 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations!
More than one month old
- June 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Mohan Charan Majhi (hook only)
- June 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Chand Sifarish (hook only)
June 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Brandiose- June 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Jab Se Tere Naina
- July 2: Template:Did you know nominations/2024 MLS All-Star Game
- July 3: Template:Did you know nominations/South West Norfolk in the 2024 United Kingdom general election
- July 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Iktara (song)
July 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Hadriana in All My DreamsJuly 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Quintus Quincy Quigley- July 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Grace Panvini
- July 5: Template:Did you know nominations/David B. Gillespie
- July 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Huang Wenxiu
July 8: Template:Did you know nominations/1954 Busan Yongdusan fire- July 9: Template:Did you know nominations/superseded combination
Other nominations
- July 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Leanne Mohamad
- July 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Margaret Coe
- July 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Nathaniel Coe
July 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Liber OZ- July 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Upper Ivory Coast
- July 15: Template:Did you know nominations/S1/S2 (Amsterdam Metro)
- July 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Tukdam
July 16: Template:Did you know nominations/Pontic Greek cultureJuly 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Babydog- July 17: Template:Did you know nominations/The Eternaut
- July 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Khalji Revolution
July 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Josep-Lluís Serrano Pentinat- July 21: Template:Did you know nominations/I'll See You in C-U-B-A
- July 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Dublin Castle scandal
- July 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Siege of Perth (1339)
- July 22: Template:Did you know nominations/State Publishing House of Ukraine
- July 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Vadym Sukharevsky
- July 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Splitwise
- July 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Sun Chen (breakdancer)
- July 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Wolfman's Got Nards
- July 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Aracy Amaral
- July 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Alfredo Gandolfi
- July 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Abduction of Jonila Castro and Jhed Tamano
Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 15:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
@Clarityfiend, Yakikaki, and AirshipJungleman29:
- ... that Abraham Lincoln felt obliged to propose to Mary Owens – a woman he did not want to marry – but was rejected, not once but several times?
I have changed the hook to:
- ... that Abraham Lincoln felt obliged to propose to Mary Owens – a woman he did not want to marry – but was rejected several times?
I have also added a "citation needed" tag, which will need to be addressed before this goes on the Main Page. Z1720 (talk) 17:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I thought about doing that trim, but decided against it, as the odd, story-like phrasing is suitable for the quirky slot. I would prefer it reinstated Z1720. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 I disagree. The "story-like" phrasing isn't really amusing, just an unnecessary verbiage. BorgQueen (talk) 22:07, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did not feel it was amusing and did not want it to be; it is just story-like. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 Then it is irrelevant. Are you saying the quirky slot is for story-like entries? That's something new to me. BorgQueen (talk) 22:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, I am saying the quirky slot is for quirky entries (c.f. OED: "Characterized by certain unexpected, odd, or unusual traits; idiosyncratic, eccentric; peculiar, unusual"). Really, it's not a big deal—if you feel the hook is more interesting trimmed, I don't much care. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 Then it is irrelevant. Are you saying the quirky slot is for story-like entries? That's something new to me. BorgQueen (talk) 22:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did not feel it was amusing and did not want it to be; it is just story-like. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 I disagree. The "story-like" phrasing isn't really amusing, just an unnecessary verbiage. BorgQueen (talk) 22:07, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Is it too late to co-add the Regions of Togo to the main hook (Template:Did you know nominations/Flag of Togo) and have the hook changed to "... that the five stripes of the flag of Togo (pictured) represent the country's five regions?" I just expanded it by five times today. All good if it is too late. Yue🌙 04:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you had a QPQ on hand that would likely ease any potential process. CMD (talk) 04:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Abortion in Eswatini but have not claimed it for a QPQ. Yue🌙 05:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the fairest thing to do is reopen the nom, which I've done.--Launchballer 13:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Launchballer Reviewed.
BorgQueen (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Launchballer Reviewed.
- I think the fairest thing to do is reopen the nom, which I've done.--Launchballer 13:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Abortion in Eswatini but have not claimed it for a QPQ. Yue🌙 05:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)