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Hi all, I just had a discussion with someone last night regarding the inclusion/exclusion of the year of publication of a name from its author citation and wanted to bring it up here. WP:TOL notes on its taxon template page that it is standard to exclude the year of publication as a part of the author citation for plant articles, however, this guidance is not included in the text of this project's taxon template, and has created confusion with at least one user that I know of regarding whether to include the year in the authority field of the taxo/speciesbox of plant articles. Could we update the taxon template to clarify this? Cheers, Ethmostigmus 🌿 (talk | contribs) 03:04, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ethmostigmus Clarification: Do you mean the authority field in the species or taxobox for plants? Because I think the reason that is not in the PLANTS taxon template is that is not settled by the Plants project. There is a bit of a diversity of opinion among regular plant editors regarding if it should or should not be included in the taxobox. Traditionally in botany the year is left off unlike in zoology, but the contrary view is that including the year in the taxobox gives more information to readers of Wikipedia and it is a taxobox not a formal botanical name. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 04:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I meant, apologies for being unclear! The year is excluded in the example plant speciesbox in both the taxon template here and at WP:TOL, but only TOL explains this choice in the text. I would love to see everyone come to consensus on this, but even if this is not a settled matter, I do think it would be worth noting that fact in the text of this project's taxonomy template - "It is standard for botanical citations to exclude the year, however, consensus has not been reached and editors may use discretion when choosing to include/exclude the year of publication from the speciesbox authority field"? Ethmostigmus 🌿 (talk | contribs) 04:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the context for the name. If I recall correctly ICNafp has text on the handling of infraspecifics introduced by the old style notation of Greek letters. Lavateraguy (talk) 23:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At taxonomic rank: "In a publication prior to 1 January 1890, if only one infraspecific rank is used, it is considered to be that of variety. (Article 37.4) This commonly applies to publications that labelled infraspecific taxa with Greek letters, α, β, γ, ...". Referring to the code, that does not seem to be an accurate paraphrase of the article. Also, the name in question here postdates the 1890 cutoff. I find the application of the code here unclear, but perhaps it would be Malus paradisiaca [unranked] dasyphylla. Lavateraguy (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the information. I still have no idea how I'll treat it in my list of apple synonyms. It may or may not be notable enough for its own article depending on if I can find enough reliable information about the history of scientific names for the cultivated apple. And it is way too long/big to shove into the apple article even as a collapsed list. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 01:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I concur with Lavateraguy on Malus paradisiaca [unranked] dasyphylla. The protologue in question is here; It is a typical nineteenth-century publication which uses Greek letters for labelling intraspecifics without further elaboration. They cannot just be assumed to be varieties since the publication postdates 1890. It is a "name at new rank" whose basionym is M. dasyphylla, so it didn't need a new diagnosis or description. For what it's worth, GBIF seems to treat it as a subspecies. Felix QW (talk) 08:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At POWO dasyphylla occurs several times in the synonymy of Malus domestica, as a species (the basionym) or as a subspecies, variety, or proles, of several species, including sylvestris, domestica and pumila. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greek letters in this book are varieties, see p. 6 (where used first)
No not really, im pretty sure there was a page that lists diffrent discussions on articles that you can contribute on, and all of them are plant-related articles. BloxyColaSweet (talk) 04:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I wonder if anyone can advise me, please. I'm still rather new to Wikipedia, and I've been working on a new page for Aster incisus in my sandbox. Since beginning it I have realized that a stub article already exists under the alternative name Kalimeris incisa. I understand that the name is disputed, but haven't been able to find out for certain which name is preferred. Any advice would be very much appreciated. ArthurTheGardener (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a mess. POWO accepts Aster incisus, as does the Flora of China website. WFO and the Global Compositae Database accept Kalimeris incisa (although the GCD record is flagged as unreviewed). Tropicos has Aster incisus accepted by "Flora of China Editorial Committee. 2011.", and Kalimeris incisa accepted by " Flora of China Editorial Committee. 1988-2013. Flora of China (Checklist & Addendum)." Given that Tropicos seems to be suggesting a change in the Flora of China treatment since it was physically published, I'd be inclined to go with Kalimeris incisa. Plantdrew (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
POWO has it in Aster; RHS has it in Kalimeris.
The old Aster got chopped into many pieces (the North American species ended up in Symphyotrichium and several other genera, and several European species ended up in Galatella, Crinitaria and Tripolium. I wondered if this pair of names was part of the same process, but on looking at Google Scholar this seems not to be the case. Instead several small East Asian genera, including Kalimaris, have been sunk into Aster - see this paper. For a fuller picture look at the references therein, and any citations made to it. Subject to further study, it seems appropriate to move Kalimeris incisa to Aster incisus, whereupon you can merge your material into it.
Thank you, @Lavateraguy and @Plantdrew: I really appreciate your thoughts. I'm happy to go with the majority opinion (if there is one). Should I simply add the material on my draft page to expand Kalimeris incisa, and wait for a consensus on the name, do you think? ArthurTheGardener (talk) 08:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that at one time there may have been a fairly good page about Heterophylly, but recent history shows converting a redirect to something else. It is now an inappropriate redirect to Heterophily. Can someone who knows how to look at ancient page history work out what has happened there? Heterophyllous is showing as a red link in a few places such as on Pinguicula. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to redirect to the Glossary of botanical terms and start working on an article for heterophyllous in the draft space if I do not see objections. Edit to add: Also, clearly I should try making a list of every possible botanical term and watching all those redirects for well intention people who do not know about plants editing them. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 01:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is much better, thanks! So there's no way to recover whatever was there ... I think there might have been this image One of each pair of leaves at a node is tiny. to show the extreme size dimorphism in the two leaves at a node in some Columnea species. That's not the easiest image to interpret, but unfortunately we don't have any pictures of Columnea hookeriana. (There are other types of heterophylly of course.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea if it is recoverable or not. I just did a search for heterophylly and found the redirects for discussion that I linked. If there was an earlier discussion for heterophyllous I did not find it, but my searching could be weak. I just tried searching for both terms on all the templates, template talk, and wikipedia talk with the assumption that a deletion discussion would show up. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 03:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've bodged up a first edit of a draft at Draft:Heterophyllous. I'm self taught and relying on books I've found on archive.org, so I would appreciate other editors working on it. Or even just pointing me at sources and saying, "Look there." For a basic explanation I think The Growth of Leaves has not lead me too far wrong on the difference between heteroblastic and heterophyllous. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 03:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, I'm sure you are right, I have misremembered. That image is used at Anisophylly. There's a bit of variation in usage, but I'd be happy with a distinction being kept here between the two, rather than cramming that meaning into heterophylly. Perhaps the simplest solution is to restrict heterophylly to the aquatic plants and have a largish "see also" section on each page. However, we have seasonal heterophylly (and Lammas growth separate). It's a bit of a tangle. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) I think that the article should be at the noun (heterophylly) rather than the adjective (heterophyllous).
2) I think that the distinction between heterophylly and heteroblasty is as honoured in the breach as in the observance, but confirming that probably requires original research. Lavateraguy (talk) 08:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the good suggestions. I will keep looking and see if I can find any sources that discuss how heterophylly and heteroblasty are actually used in literature as opposed to how they are defined in theory. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 15:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recently updated the taxonomy of Hibiscus × rosa-sinensis, treating it as a nothospecies. The treatment is accepted by PoWO and is based on:
Braglia, Luca; Thomson, Lex A. J.; Cheek, Martin; Mabberley, David J. & Butaud, Jean-François (2024), "Pacific Species of Hibiscus sect. Lilibiscus (Malvaceae). 4. The Origin of Hibiscus Rosa-Sinensis: A 300-Year-Old Mystery Solved", Pacific Science, 77 (4): 395–415, doi:10.2984/77.4.3
The authors are in favour of splitting Hibiscus and Pavonia, but only introduced 3 of the necessary new genera (Astrohibiscus, Blanchardia and Cravenia), though they do propose resurrecting quite a few older generic names. Lavateraguy (talk) 12:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should these uncited articles be merged or deleted or cited or what?
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